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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
We had a debate on another forum awhile back about how the show movement (breeding for the show ring) has affected all breed's as a whole. I just find this very interesting to say the least.
 

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English Dogge Yard
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Definitely interesting, in my opinion over breeding partially due to everyone wanting a show dog and also partially due to supply and demand, is killing dog breeds.

I've never been into showing dogs and as it gets worse, it further proves that what ive been saying for years is correct.

I would take a working dog over any show quality dog any day of the week and to me, the few working bred dogs out there in the world are the closest modernized dogs to the original dog.

Many of those dogs on the video should have been put down as soon as they knew what they were up against it was sad to see that in the video, it seemed the owners were still keeping these dogs around unless otherwise stated. Seriously? Your dog is miserable put them down! I know its hard but i would much rather PTS than have a dog suffer the rest of their lives.

For years now, the large dogs keep getting larger, small dogs keep getting smaller and unfortunately no one is stopping them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Absolutely this is what happen's when you start breeding looks over purpose. Eventually the breed's suffer for it. Look at how differently some of those working breed's look today due to show breeder's. I think it's funny how show dog breeder's will bash working dog's and call animal sporting cruel. Yet they will breed genetic messes/ unhealthy dog's for the sake of vanity. To me that is cruel. I thought it was very interesting and made some good points. I am all for inbreeding when it's done properly but there is a limit and a line is drawn.
 

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In this time and place not every home should own a working dog. The real mastiff is long gone and bandog breeders are working to resurrect the working mastiff but realistically
Speaking how many families can own a 100+ pound man stopper ? Also look at gamebred dogs, would you recommend one of those for a new dog owning family? I would hope not because most Americans don't even know how to take care of a dog and don't recognize the animals need proper physical and mental stimulation daily. With my newborn son coming home I can see how someone can get lazy and forget about their animals, thankfully I know what it takes to own a dog and I would never set up my dogs to fail. I could also see that owning a real working dog in a scenario such as the one I am in at this moment would be extremely difficult. So I believe people can own watered down dogs or show dogs as long as temperament and health tests are properly done prior to a breeding to ensure healthy and sound animals roam the suburbs lol

I tell Freddy all the time I won't pay more than 300 bucks for a dog without health testing dog's parents I don't care who bred it and what the parents did even if it comes from the best working lines.
 

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English Dogge Yard
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While you make some good points David about the working dog, i also disagree with you on the belief that most people that own dogs..shouldn't. They are just part of the on going problem and the cycle affects everything..directly.

Bandogges, Bulldogs, Yorkies, etc etc if you are going to own one in my opinion in some way or another you should work your dogs. No matter if its a 15 pound dog or a 120 pound dog. To me no dog should be just a show dog or just a pet, humans did not create these dogs by selective breeding to stand around and look pretty or be lazy they bred them to work and perform duties..what those jobs were greatly depended on the breed obviously but no matter they still had a purpose.

Owning a dog and having one apart of your life is not a necessity it is a privilege that majority of people take lightly. If your going to own a dog you should provide all essential needs and part of those needs is a purpose in life. Everything has a purpose that walks this earth or breathes in some form or another, people as a whole are completely killing dogs and their purposes for nothing more than personal gain. Dogs no matter how bred could give a crap if they have ribbons, win titles, etc. They care about pleasing us and the work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
David that's just it .. It was pointed out in this video that show breeder's are not health testing and are breeding/grossly inbreeding dog's for the show ring without being required to health test their dogs. The Kennel Club guy even stated that the show dog is the correct version of the breed over the working dog LOL. Now that was hilarious look at how different the German Shepherd, and English Bull Terrier's look today compared to what they looked like many years ago when they were bred for working purposes.
 

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English Dogge Yard
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David that's just it .. It was pointed out in this video that show breeder's are not health testing and are breeding/grossly inbreeding dog's for the show ring without being required to health test their dogs. The Kennel Club guy even stated that the show dog is the correct version of the breed over the working dog LOL. Now that was hilarious look at how different the German Shepherd, and English Bull Terrier's look today compared to what they looked like many years ago when they were bred for working purposes.
:goodpost: and exactly. ANY dog today is morphed in more ways than one. Myles currently is 2 pounds away from hitting 100lbs, 100 years ago he would have been considered MASSIVE and very, very few breeds would be larger. Today? We have 100+ labs, 100+ bullies, 200+ mastiffs, etc etc which in return makes them utterly useless in comparison to back in the day.

Even breeds like Bandogges, while many breeders are breeding with the best intentions imo a 140 - 150 pound Bandogge is counterproductive. Theres no reason for a working Mastiff to be that large which again would go back to the breeds involved in the breeders yards. You can have drive all you want, if your too big your too big.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
I agree you don't need a dog of that size to function for their intended purpose. I mean APBT's can pull thousands of pounds against their little 45-50 lb bodies . Why do you need 150 dog to protect a human? Breeding for looks should be the last thing on the list Function, temperament and health first ... Looks second. I didn't know a protection dog was supposed to look like anything when their number one job is to protect their owner not look good while doing it LOL.
 

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While you make some good points David about the working dog, i also disagree with you on the belief that most people that own dogs..shouldn't. They are just part of the on going problem and the cycle affects everything..directly.

Bandogges, Bulldogs, Yorkies, etc etc if you are going to own one in my opinion in some way or another you should work your dogs. No matter if its a 15 pound dog or a 120 pound dog. To me no dog should be just a show dog or just a pet, humans did not create these dogs by selective breeding to stand around and look pretty or be lazy they bred them to work and perform duties..what those jobs were greatly depended on the breed obviously but no matter they still had a purpose.

Owning a dog and having one apart of your life is not a necessity it is a privilege that majority of people take lightly. If your going to own a dog you should provide all essential needs and part of those needs is a purpose in life. Everything has a purpose that walks this earth or breathes in some form or another, people as a whole are completely killing dogs and their purposes for nothing more than personal gain. Dogs no matter how bred could give a crap if they have ribbons, win titles, etc. They care about pleasing us and the work.
I never said dogs shouldn't be worked in some way because they don't come from working lines lol all I am saying is that a working dog and a pet dog are two different animals. Take a police grade working malinois and take one of your dogs and see which one will demand more work and attention from you. I have a 6 pound chihuahua that can give me a 1.5 mile daily walk in 80 degree weather I could push him much more but I put 3 miles of road work with Bernie right before the chihuahua. I owned a paper less dog that was an athletic freak nothing would tire him out, treadmill, weighted backpack on a 5 mile hike and the dog would come home and start running circles in the yard. Bernie is another story he has the perfect balance of workability but my next dog will be something else all together. While we can show our appreciation for working dogs not every home should own one.
 

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:goodpost: and exactly. ANY dog today is morphed in more ways than one. Myles currently is 2 pounds away from hitting 100lbs, 100 years ago he would have been considered MASSIVE and very, very few breeds would be larger. Today? We have 100+ labs, 100+ bullies, 200+ mastiffs, etc etc which in return makes them utterly useless in comparison to back in the day.

Even breeds like Bandogges, while many breeders are breeding with the best intentions imo a 140 - 150 pound Bandogge is counterproductive. Theres no reason for a working Mastiff to be that large which again would go back to the breeds involved in the breeders yards. You can have drive all you want, if your too big your too big.
I can show you a few 100+ pound dogs that can listen and obey better than a 50 pound dog.
 

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I agree you don't need a dog of that size to function for their intended purpose. I mean APBT's can pull thousands of pounds against their little 45-50 lb bodies . Why do you need 150 dog to protect a human? Breeding for looks should be the last thing on the list Function, temperament and health first ... Looks second. I didn't know a protection dog was supposed to look like anything when their number one job is to protect their owner not look good while doing it LOL.
You didn't know guard dogs need a pretty coat and big paws ? Lol
 

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English Dogge Yard
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I agree you don't need a dog of that size to function for their intended purpose. I mean APBT's can pull thousands of pounds against their little 45-50 lb bodies . Why do you need 150 dog to protect a human? Breeding for looks should be the last thing on the list Function, temperament and health first ... Looks second. I didn't know a protection dog was supposed to look like anything when their number one job is to protect their owner not look good while doing it LOL.
Exactly, i have zero desire to own a 150 pound dog, i'd prefer Myles not to hit 100 but i have no choice in the matter. lol Hopefully he wont get too much bigger, even if he doesn't fair well with PP type work hes bred for work and thats what i wanted beyond anything. Kilie was bred for work and shes in the mid 40's why people feel the need to breed these huge freaks for work is beyond me.

If dogs needed to be well in the 100's for work, i guess in the purest form German Shepherds didn't get that memo. APBT's got all the memos and threw them away. lmao

I wish a respectable law would go into effect to crack down on breeders, for all breeds. I also think the UKC/AKC especially given the stake they have with many breeds should take a step back and seriously look at what they are approving and their messages. Look at their standards and look at history, its not rocket science figuring out what is going on. Its honesty.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
LOL David I am all for a dog being larger don't get me wrong as long as it's healthy first. But I don't think size matter's when it comes to working dog's. The APBT is proof of that. Now of course the APBT would suck at being a guard dog because it's not what they were bred for. But I don't think size has anything to do with protecting a human. I think it's more of the breeder's wanting to produce a certain look which is fine if you are not sacrificing health, working ability, mental soundness ect. But still the purpose of a protection dog is to protect it's owner as long as it can do that and function the way it was intended to I don't care how big or small it is.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
PS I wouldn't want to own a dog who is bigger and weighs more than me LOL ... Not my preference. I know working dog's are bred anywhere from 25lbs on up. As long as it can work and do the job I am not hung up on size. I prefer smaller dog's though.
 

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English Dogge Yard
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I can show you a few 100+ pound dogs that can listen and obey better than a 50 pound dog.
I can show myself as i have seen them. Obeying and training has nothing to do with function, practicality and in the end the ability to perform the work after training is said and done.

Can 150 pound dogs work? Absolutely. Is it needed? No. Is it practical? Not really.
You take two excellent bred working dogs, everything virtually identical except weight/general appearance. Dog A is 150lbs, Dog B is 90lbs. I can guarantee you that smaller dog can out perform consistently than that of the larger dog. The larger you go you start to lose some vital functions such as agility and movability. Also the smaller dog will generally be able to go longer and more affectively than the larger dog.

Are there exceptions? Naturally. Are there many in the real world? No.

Extreme example but never the less look at Lions and Tigers. Now look at Ligers. Ligers are freakishly large and have ZERO ability to survive in the wild due to being excessively large. Scary? Sure, i wouldn't mess with one. But in comparison the smaller Lions and Tigers are much more effective in every single way.

Now take down the scale and look back at dogs, exact same concept. 150 pound dog might not be useless by any means but given identical everything minus weight and general appearance as mentioned due to appearance is going to be altered given the 60 pound weight difference of a 90 pound dog, that smaller dog will prove to be better suited for work.

Obeying and training is one thing, the work the training builds up to is another.
 
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LOL David I am all for a dog being larger don't get me wrong as long as it's healthy first. But I don't think size matter's when it comes to working dog's. The APBT is proof of that. Now of course the APBT would suck at being a guard dog because it's not what they were bred for. But I don't think size has anything to do with protecting a human. I think it's more of the breeder's wanting to produce a certain look which is fine if you are not sacrificing health, working ability, mental soundness ect. But still the purpose of a protection dog is to protect it's owner as long as it can do that and function the way it was intended to I don't care how big or small it is.
I don't discriminate sizes lol haha jk I think in the protection world a dog is only worth as much as how much nerves it has. Sort of like the game test, if the dog can't pass a courage test it wont work out. You can have a nice pedigree on a protection dog or an impressive look but if the dog can't handle pressure and it runs away out of fear then the dog is useless for that function. this is what most bybs don't get, they think about crating a dog for the first two years of it's life so it doesn't get socialized and once they have a fear biter they think they got the best protection dog to breed lol I can make some nasty labs like that too lol don't bring them around people until they are done developing and they will want to take a bite out of everything that scares them. However, if you go deep in enough in testing the courage and do frightening things to the dogs you will see if the dog is truly built to defend or if it's just a big bluff.
 

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I find it amusing when people on this site complain about dogs that are bred for size,color and looks instead of being bred for propper structure, health and ability when over half this site is made up of bullies no dis-respect intended if bullies are what you like more power to you but from a structure/health standpoint they are quickly becoming one step away from a EB
 
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