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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Ok so I got this boy around 12wks from an "APBT" breeder. I was an ignorant person like almost everyone else who thinks are Pitbull looking dogs are APBT. I've had Rottweilers and Doberman Pinschers all my life but this time, I wanted a medium sized dog. When looking for a APBT, I noticed that they are so many Pitbulls out there, shelters, backyard breeders, etc. Every ad that I saw claimed that they had "Gottiline" or "RE" bloodline Pitbulls. I was clueless at the time about bloodlines so it didn't mattered to me. I didn't care about papers or anything. I just wanted a good looking dog. So I checked out the parents to make my decision.

I came upon the dog that I have now. The breeder had UKC papers but again, I didn't care about papers. Now after seeing my boy grow, I kinda wish I did get his papers. My question now is... Is he an APBT or an AmStaff? The breeder told me back then that he had APBT. The sire was 60lbs and dam was 50lbs. He said they were Razor's Edge bloodlines. It's been 7 months since I contacted the breeder. Of course, he can't locate him anymore for more information.

My boy is now 8 months old and weighs 38lbs, 17" to the withers. I compare him to APBT and AST pics and he looks more like an AST to me.

What do you think?

 

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Pits Are For Chicks
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Probably an American Bully if he's RE. Classic Bullies very closely resemble Amstaff, but there is a difference in breeding between the 2 even though the look is so close.

Being as he is papered, you just didn't get them, it's not like most who have no papers and want to find out what breed. If you did have the papers we could look at what actual lines the dog is.

Cute pup. Is it possible to contact the breeders and get the papers?

What area of CA you in?
 

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RE is not an APBT bloodline. Depending on which breeder he came from he will either be AmStaff or AmBully. Because the UKC doesn't recognize the AmStaff or the AmBully they are all registered as APBTs on their paperwork, even though they are not truly APBTs.

I will try to explain the RE thing as easily as possible. The foundation of the RE line were very nice AmStaffs. Clean looking dogs, with nice structure.
Now some have kept it pure and only bred back to the true AmStaff, while other people took it in another direction of AmBullies. Some lines of Bullies are far to over exaggerated and have some structure problems so they use the RE dogs to clean up their lines. Sine they had good structure it often mixed well will the bully lines.

The only way to know for sure what you've got would be to get a hold of the breeders and look at papers. If it was the older RE that stayed the same then it would be AmStaff, if it is the new off branch RE then it's most likely classic bully.
I hope this make sense I tried to keep it as simple as possible ;)
 

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Probably an American Bully if he's RE. Classic Bullies very closely resemble Amstaff, but there is a difference in breeding between the 2 even though the look is so close.

Being as he is papered, you just didn't get them, it's not like most who have no papers and want to find out what breed. If you did have the papers we could look at what actual lines the dog is.

Cute pup. Is it possible to contact the breeders and get the papers?

What area of CA you in?
:goodpost:
Lol we were posting at the same time but your much faster ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
I lost the breeder's contact info. I wish I knew more about him. I honestly didn't really care at first about my dogs lineage but as he got older and started going onto forums, I got a little more curious. I do remember the breeder saying he's a RE dog but it seemed like every ad that I saw said their dogs were RE and they looked so ugly. This breeder probably had the best looking sire and dam at the time.

I had no idea there was a difference with American Bullies, ASTs, and APBTs until I came into these forums. When looking for a dog, everyone seem claim that they had American Bullies and from RE. I would have to say that Central California has the most breeders.

I am happy with my boy. He is the best dog I have ever owned. He's great with kids, other pets, and has never shown any negative signs at all. I just always assumed that he was pure classic APBT but he's definitely thicker than one.
 

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Yea there are a ton of people breeding dogs around here, I'm about 2.5 hours north of you ;)
Most are just BYBing for the money which is why you see so many in the shelters here. Sad. Yea the AmStaff and APBT have been different breeds for a long long time now. Bullies are fairly new, and more common as well as mix breeding in our area.
I like your pup, very nice looking, but I'm willing to bet she's more along the lines of Classic Bully, which were APBT/AmStaff cross in the beginning. I could be completely wrong, only way to know for sure is the ped, but bassed on the area that's what I'd guess. That's just cause I've personally seen far more Bullies than anything in the area.
 

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In regards to DNA, the Amstaff and the APBT are the same dog. You can go far enough back in both pedigrees and find the exact same dogs..

The AKC registered in UKC registered Pit Bulls and changed the name to Amstaff to reduce stigma. But changing a name doesn't change what a dog is. And continuing to breed pure obviously keeps the breed the same, regardless of what you decide to call it. There are some Amstaff lines that have retained their UKC papers since the beginning. They didn't "forfeit" their right to be APBT's just because they wanted to show in the AKC as Amstaffs... This is why UKC allowed Amstaffs to register in as APBT's. Because they had pedigrees that could be traced back to UKC APBT's....

More appropriately put, the Amstaffs and the APBT are technically just different BLOODLINES of the same breed. Bred to look/work a certain way. Since there was never any outside blood added, the DNA hasn't actually changed. You can compare them to any other breed of dogs where the "show version" looks so very different from the "working version".

The American German Shepherd looks very different from the German Dogs, the Field Working Springer Spaniel looks VASTLY different from the Show Ring Springer (look that one up, it's amazing), the Taco Bell Chihuahua looks nothing like the Chihuahuas in the show ring either... You get my point.... But they are ALL considered the same breed, regardless of which direction they were bred...

The American Bully is not a breed. It's a title. Anyone with a bully looking dog (even purebred English's) can register into the ABKC and call their dog a Bully.(At least until the end of this year, when the books will close and so will the gene pool). If I register my AKC Amstaff into the ABKC as a Bully, that does not change the fact that it is still an Amstaff..

The ABKC was founded because people in the UKC were crossing in different breeds and hanging UKC papers on them. The proverbial shit was about to hit the fan in the UKC so the people doing it decided to start their own registry rather than face DNA testing and punishment... Because paperless pups aren't worth squat. So they invented a registry, slapped a high price tag on them, and voila!

If a UKC registered APBT has NEVER had any outside blood mixed in, then it cannot magically change into an American Bully. It can register into the ABKC and call itself a Bully, but it's DNA is still APBT.... If it's a heavier dog, then it's just a heavier APBT. It's blood did not magically change because someone picked the heavier dogs in the past few generations and selectively bred them together... That's like saying that the people who selectively bred larger Dobermans or Rottweilers made them not Dobermans and Rottweilers anymore.....
 

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I could be wrong but im pretty sure the ABKC is getting stricter on what they will register. But at this point as far as im concerned its a breed, it has a kennel club and I'd have to do more research but its a breed with different blood. And I also argue that AST and APBT while sharing the same history are now 2 very different structures, and anything that crosses those 2 breeds would be considered a mix or pitterstaff. Cuz im pretty sure that u can no longer dual register with AKC UKC. Again to me the reg papers can say what they want but the blood and the dogs ability speak for itself. The ped does not make the dog, the dog makes the ped.

I agree with Holly and Krystal... if ur pup truly is RE than she is American Bully. I too am from NorCal :)
 

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I could be wrong but im pretty sure the ABKC is getting stricter on what they will register. But at this point as far as im concerned its a breed, it has a kennel club and I'd have to do more research but its a breed with different blood. And I also argue that AST and APBT while sharing the same history are now 2 very different structures, and anything that crosses those 2 breeds would be considered a mix or pitterstaff. Cuz im pretty sure that u can no longer dual register with AKC UKC. Again to me the reg papers can say what they want but the blood and the dogs ability speak for itself. The ped does not make the dog, the dog makes the ped.

I agree with Holly and Krystal... if ur pup truly is RE than she is American Bully. I too am from NorCal :)
The separation of these breeds will always differ to opinion. You can no longer register AKC dogs with the UKC or UKC dogs with the AKC however previously registered dogs can still be dual registered. UKC closed its registration to dogs registered outside the UKC.

The APBT and Amstaff were originally the same dogs, but like I said what they are now will vary from opinion to opinion on what makes a breed what it is.

They are separate by name, registry and type so I look at them separately. However I don't consider an Amstaff/APBT litter a mix bred litter either lol. So go figure.

Also any APBT/AmStaff being called a Bully well is it actually a bully or just an out of standard oversized pitterstaff? If no new breeds have been added your just breeding out of standard not making a new bred.
 
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I could be wrong but im pretty sure the ABKC is getting stricter on what they will register. But at this point as far as im concerned its a breed, it has a kennel club and I'd have to do more research but its a breed with different blood. And I also argue that AST and APBT while sharing the same history are now 2 very different structures, and anything that crosses those 2 breeds would be considered a mix or pitterstaff. Cuz im pretty sure that u can no longer dual register with AKC UKC. Again to me the reg papers can say what they want but the blood and the dogs ability speak for itself. The ped does not make the dog, the dog makes the ped.

I agree with Holly and Krystal... if ur pup truly is RE than she is American Bully. I too am from NorCal :)
You just said it yourself. The papers can say what they want to, but the BLOOD is what speaks. So if AKC took a bunch of Pit Bulls and called them Amstaffs on paper, it doesn't mean they don't still have their Pit Bull Blood... Just like I said...

And If you just said that the bully is a "Breed with different blood", then how can a UKC registered APBT truly be a bully?? That makes no sense...

As far as ABKC Bullies go, I could make a new registry too (anyone can) and call a poodle a pit bull on paper, it doesn't mean it's a new breed of pit bull....

The Bullies I have seen are mostly APBT's crossed with English Bulldog or some Mastiff type breed. Though I recently saw some that were crossed with Frenchies! When you can call that many different dogs with different breeds mixed together the same thing, to me it's just a label, not a breed. Why do you think that AKC/UKC will not recognize Cockapoos and Labradoodles? Because mixing 2 breeds does not automatically give you a new one. It gives you a mutt....

The dog above looks nothing like a Bully to me. It looks more like an Amstaff... But I have a few Amstaffs that look like Bullies (with a little more muzzle) because God made them "overdone". Just because they are "overdone" does not magically change them from Amstaffs into Bullies..... They are still Amstaffs. Just like there are Amstaffs that look like game-bred dogs. We call them Pet Quality Amstaffs...

You are also wrong about there not being any AKC/UKC Amstaffs anymore..
All of my Amstaffs are dual registered AKC/UKC. My UKC papers are "PR" too, which means that my Amstaffs have been UKC registered (and show titled) for at least 6 generations as APBT's. Obviously I have some experience in this area.

Again, I will say that, just because a dog has been bred for a specific look/purpose, does not mean it's not a purebred dog of it's breed. If no outside blood was added it is still the same breed. Below is a PERFECT example of this. I am posting two photos. Both are of AKC registered Springer Spaniels. The first photo is of Springer Spaniels bred just for field work. The second photo is a Springer Spaniel after many generations of being bred for the show ring (like the Amstaff). BOTH are AKC registered and BOTH are Springers. Just different bloodlines..... No one would dare look at the breeder/owner of either one and say their dog was not a Springer...

Same difference with the APBT. If someone has a pedigree and DNA that says their dog is a purebred APBT. Then no one has the right to call it anything else just because it doesn't look like what THEIR ideal of the breed should be...

Springer Spaniels bred for field work (this is their natural coat, they have not been shaved)

[/URL] fss by wonderlandamstaffs, on Flickr[/IMG]

And a Springer Spaniel Bred for the Show Ring

[/URL] connor2 by wonderlandamstaffs, on Flickr[/IMG]
 

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Great explanation Sharon. I never really had it explained to me quite like that. I've had springers bred for the field, completely diff from the show bred. I wanted tough, hard working dogs for bird hunting. Plus I love the ticking! A friend acquired a show bred.... Beautiful dog but he was just not my cup of tea. I've always hoped that OUR breeds would eventually be accepted by our peers like the spaniels but it doesn't seem to be happening any time soon.
 

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Yeah I don't buy into them being the same breed, but I see what you are saying in the explanation about. Totally bred for different purposes though. I am sure although no one would call those dogs a different breed, they would not argue their purpose. I have seen many different arguments about some people accepting Amstaff and APBT to be the same breed, but I am one that believes they are not bloodlines, but different breeds since each have their own distinct bloodlines.
 

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I think u misread me or maybe I explained it wrong. I didn't say that dual reg dogs don't exist any more, I said that they are dual reging dogs anymore. Like Holly said the books have been closed and dogs cannot be dual reged from this point on. Not all Bullies are overdone, there are several that throwbacks to the old AmStaff lines.

And yes I am aware of feild dogs not looking like show dogs but with the unique feild that the APBT was bred for, the AKC wanted to stay away from [] talk. Do u consider American Akitas a different breed than Akita Inus? Or the same bred for different standards?

This might be just splitting hairs, but I always hate the talk about how "God made the dog that way" excuse. God didn't breed the dogs, man did. Dogs in God's eyes were ment to be mutts, so to speak. And no, don't start any religous debate, im not getting into it.
 

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RE is not an APBT bloodline. Depending on which breeder he came from he will either be AmStaff or AmBully. Because the UKC doesn't recognize the AmStaff or the AmBully they are all registered as APBTs on their paperwork, even though they are not truly APBTs.

I will try to explain the RE thing as easily as possible. The foundation of the RE line were very nice AmStaffs. Clean looking dogs, with nice structure.
Now some have kept it pure and only bred back to the true AmStaff, while other people took it in another direction of AmBullies. Some lines of Bullies are far to over exaggerated and have some structure problems so they use the RE dogs to clean up their lines. Sine they had good structure it often mixed well will the bully lines.

The only way to know for sure what you've got would be to get a hold of the breeders and look at papers. If it was the older RE that stayed the same then it would be AmStaff, if it is the new off branch RE then it's most likely classic bully.
I hope this make sense I tried to keep it as simple as possible ;)
Yes!! What she said! :goodpost:
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
Ha. I'd guess its safe to say that my boy is a mutt! I honestly don't care about whether he was an AmStaff or APBT or even a AmBully. I just get asked quite often what bloodline or whether he's a APBT or AmStaff. I always tell them I don't know because I don't know! I just know he's a Razor's Edge bloodline dog but it seems like every dog is a Razor's Edge dog. Thanks for the input everyone. I learned quit a bit from this thread.

I kinda wish I bought his pedigree just to know his history but I got him neutered and didn't plan on breeding him so it was pointless to me.

 

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I think u misread me or maybe I explained it wrong. I didn't say that dual reg dogs don't exist any more, I said that they are dual reging dogs anymore. Like Holly said the books have been closed and dogs cannot be dual reged from this point on. Not all Bullies are overdone, there are several that throwbacks to the old AmStaff lines.

And yes I am aware of feild dogs not looking like show dogs but with the unique feild that the APBT was bred for, the AKC wanted to stay away from [] talk. Do u consider American Akitas a different breed than Akita Inus? Or the same bred for different standards?

This might be just splitting hairs, but I always hate the talk about how "God made the dog that way" excuse. God didn't breed the dogs, man did. Dogs in God's eyes were ment to be mutts, so to speak. And no, don't start any religous debate, im not getting into it.
I did not misunderstand. When you say "they are not dual registering dogs anymore" it implies that the AKC Amstaffs can no longer register their litters in the UKC, even if they are registered... So it reads to me.

UKC is planning to reopen the books one day, but according to the UKC people, it will only open to AKC dogs. No more ADBA and such. No idea when this will happen, but I plan on asking the President of the UKC this weekend if he shows up at the Nationals...

I do consider the Akita Inu and the American Akita the same breed. AKC does too. When dogs are imported, they are registered as Akitas. Not American or Inu....

I wasn't being religious. Maybe I should have said "mother nature". Just like you spoke about "throwbacks" with the bullies, there can be a litter with varying types of pups. Particularly with outcrosses. You get some that have more substance and bone (or less) than others. Some have better heads, some have shorter backs, etc. etc...

This is why it is highly unusual for a breeder to produce an entire litter of show quality pups. Mother nature makes them different. Some are ideal, some are pet quality. Can't really say "man" did it. Not unless you work in a lab and can genetically manipulate every embryo..... We can only put the dogs together and hope nature follows our wishes...
 

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Great explanation Sharon. I never really had it explained to me quite like that. I've had springers bred for the field, completely diff from the show bred. I wanted tough, hard working dogs for bird hunting. Plus I love the ticking! A friend acquired a show bred.... Beautiful dog but he was just not my cup of tea. I've always hoped that OUR breeds would eventually be accepted by our peers like the spaniels but it doesn't seem to be happening any time soon.
That is quite evident, here in particular... And Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Where's the dog's ped?
When I acquired the dog, the breeder gave me the option to buy "with" or "without" papers. I opted to go without papers because he was going to be only a pet, not a show dog or a stud.

As he got older, I get questions regarding his lineage. I just always assumed he was an APBT because that's what the breeder said. Then I hear people saying he's an AmBully or AmStaff.

I made this thread to see what the knowledgable online Pitbull community thinks rather than a regular person walking down the street.



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When I acquired the dog, the breeder gave me the option to buy "with" or "without" papers. I opted to go without papers because he was going to be only a pet, not a show dog or a stud.

As he got older, I get questions regarding his lineage. I just always assumed he was an APBT because that's what the breeder said. Then I hear people saying he's an AmBully or AmStaff.

I made this thread to see what the knowledgable online Pitbull community thinks rather than a regular person walking down the street.
Blue Buddy...
The majority of breeders today have no clue what they are really breeding, regarding the ApBT breed.
That breeder may have actually believed he was breeding ApBT's.
A majority of people call the blue dogs ApBT's today. Blues are nothing more than a show version. An AST. Some are bullies.
Yours looks more like an AST to me.

Now that you know this fact, next time you look for a pup you'll have a better idea of what you're looking for.
Also I think now you can see a little more value in a pedigree.
 
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