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- I found a great website that has all the info and studies I have done research on. It talks about the dangers of slip chains but also Head Halties and easy walker harnesses fall into this category too. Because the Halties and easy walkers twist the body they can cause long term damage to the neck and spine. When you select a collar to work with a martingale is best for sensitive dogs and a prong is great for the stronger dogs. If used correctly they can be great tools just just like any equipment you must use them properly.

I could not agree more with the statement and this is how I feel about training. The best well rounded trainers are the ones who continue to learn and grow but also use different methods for different dogs. Dogs are not cookie cutter dogs and may require different methods to accomplish what you need. The newer methods that are popping up are all E collar training like with Sit means Sit and I have seen some trainers (who have only gone through a 6 week course to become a so called trainer) ruin dogs by not using the collars the right way and again this does not work with all dogs. Then you have the no correction and all motivational method and even that has it's flaws with the harder dogs. Finding a trainer with experience in many methods is important to look for when selecting a trainer to work with. Beware of the franchise training centers or ones with only one way to do things.

The best Trainers are those who never stop learning.
They are the ones who have learned not to base their opinions about the usefulness of a training method, on the inability of someone (or a population of people) to understand and learn to use a method correctly.
They are the ones best equipped to work with the sometimes unconventional (but so true-to-life) combinations of individual idiosyncrasies, personal strengths, and weaknesses which present with each student-dog/handler team.
. . .even when it means they must revise previously held concepts and challenge old ideas.

- Janice Frasche

A Study on Prong Collars was done in Germany:
100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma.
The numbers seem to speak for themselves.
(Information about above study taken from an Anne Marie Silverton Seminar)


Here is an article about the dangers of different collars

Some Comments on Safety and Effectiveness of collars and other forms of control with dogs
(c) 2003 by Bonnie Dalzell, MA
e mail is bdalzell at Q I S dot net
used with permission.

I was a teaching assistant and laboratory instructor in veterinary anatomy at the Veterinary College of the University of Pennsylvania for over 13 years and I have been raising a large, and often enthusiastic breed of long haired dog, Borzois since the late 1970's. I also do some training -especially with people with difficult dogs.

Your section on the prong collar is quite clear and makes a good case for the prong collar, perhaps a better case than you realize. The section on the nylon snap choke does not discuss some of the failings of this device as compared to either a prong collar or a chain choke.

The limitations of the nylon snap choke are, in my opinion:

(1) In long haired dogs with thick neck hair, nylon chokes generally do not release at the end of the correction, so even if the dog responds well to the correction, the collar may continue to nag and punish the dog. It only takes a little wear on a fabric choke for this problem to start to develop because the thick undercoat of a long haired dog easily fouls the choke.

(2) More seriously, the "control" region of the neck, the area high up just under the back of the jaws, works because this is where the voice box or larynx is on the dog. The voice box is made of many small fine bones which can easily be broken by a sudden compression, as when a dog on a high set choke collar suddenly lunges against the collar. For this reason a prong collar is much to be preferred to a high set choke as the worse damage a prong collar can do if there is a powerful lunge is to puncture the skin, especially if the prong collar is designed so that the prongs do not lie over the trachea.

As an anatomist and a serious breeder I obtained thorough postmortem reports on many of my Borzois after they passed on and I was surprised to find that a number of them had healed fractures of the lateral bones of the larynx. This sort of injury narrows the opening into the trachea and, in extreme cases, could also produce respiratory insufficiency at heavy exercise.

A lateral radiograph read by some one who knows what they are looking at can reveal these injuries in a living dog.

Haltis and Easy Leaders have the potential to severely injure a dog's neck in the case of an out of control dog who bucks on the Halti. Dogs do not have the massive neck ligamentation of horses and, while their necks are stronger than ours, they still can be injured, especially if suddenly pulled up and back. Haltis do have their place in control of a powerful dog, I regularly use one on one of my best lure coursing Borzoi who has injured his trachea from his enthusiastic attempts to get at the lure while we are waiting for him to have his turn to run. However one needs to be careful that the dog does not get up speed and run to the end of a long leash while in a Halti, because the leverage on the neck that can be exerted by a high speed Halti stop could be very damaging. I would not use one on a dog working on the high obstacles of an agility course because if the dog fell from the A-frame or the elevated walk and was jerked by the Halti it could be severely injured.

In addition I have observed that since Haltis do not deliver much correction, they are good for control but not training.

I have found that a useful tool for leash breaking long necked sighthound pups without neck injury is to start them out on a harness until they learn not to panic and buck from the restriction of the leash and then to work them on a harness and a collar and then a collar alone. I prefer a chain choke collar to a buckle collar or a fabric choke. I would not have the choke collar riding really high on the neck and compressing the larynx because of problems discussed above unless I was handling a dangerous dog.

If I am working a dog in agility that is unreliable enough that it needs a leash to keep it from running off after it has completed an obstacle, I would use a harness rather than a collar for the same reasons discussed under the Halti.

The "no pull" harnesses with the thin cords that run in the arm pits of the dog work because they do cause a lot of discomfort in that region. (This is why back pack straps are padded for human use). However I have seen dogs become chronic pullers on these devices also and I worry that chronic pulling on these may result in damage to the nerves going to the forelegs. For control it is best to have the leash attachment of a harness be at the front end of the harness, that is at the base of the neck, not behind the shoulders. The front end attachment puts the control in front of the dog's center of gravity and discourages pulling. The typical attachment point for a leash on a harness places the control behind the center of gravity, enabling the dog to pull much more effectively.

When comparing the prong collar and the nylon snap collar, I Feel the prong collar is a better choice for really powerful control.

Remember, if you have a really dangerous dog, use a properly fitted (secure but not so tight as to inhibit breathing and panting) muzzle.

Here is the link with more info
Prong Collar Info
 

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alot of great info i like the study on the 100 dogs very good info
 

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very good article , I still wont use a prong though I dont like them , I think alot of people dont even use them properly when i see them out with them also just like the chains. The other day those kids that had the lab who went after luna and I had a prong on and it came off. I would like to see a study on those who are the "typical" users who just go out and buy a prong and put it on without any knowledge on how to use it and see what they are doing to there dogs? Great read though gives some great points we stopped using slip chains on a couple of our dogs cause they will just pull npull they dont care, we switched to the martingale.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
There are many types of collars and this is just some info to help everyone learn the dangers of some collars that were thought to be safe. You have to find what type of collar works best for your dog and I always suggest to go with the lowest level of correction and work your way up if you need it.
 

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I always thought haltis were pretty safe until we started using one and although they work very well we found we also started hearing alot of horror storys with them from broken necks to spinal injuries so we stopped. I think alot of people would benefit using a trainer to show proper ways of using certain collars you see so many people with chokers, and prongs and even haltis used wrong maybe more education on "how" to use them would help alot of people.
 

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thats a good idea , was wondering if you had any videos or anything with proper usage on these different collars, sometimes its easier for those to visually see the proper vs the wrong way to use them , with the amount of dogs you have and train figured you probably have used allt he above collars at some point.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I think I am going to do a video series and pictures for a few behavior related questions like how do I keep my dog from jumping. There is also a great site with pictures on the leer burg forum but I just might take my own to show. I will slowly be working on the training section to get more help on here.
 

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:goodpost:Very Good Post Lisa! As always you always post informative information backed up by your years of experience in the field of training dogs!
 

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HANDS DOWN THE PRONG COLLAR IS THE BEST.. USED PROPERLY AND FITTED PROPERLY IT WILL MAKE YOUR DOG A OBEIDIENCE CHAMP.. UNFORTUNATELY IVE SEEN ALOT OF PEOPLE WITH THEM ON TOO LOOSE OR EVEN WITH THE PRONGS FACING OUTWARDS.. BUT THIS IS ALL WE USE IN OUR HOUSEHOLD AND OUR 4 MO OLD PUP HEELS LIKE A PRO ALLREADY..
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
HANDS DOWN THE PRONG COLLAR IS THE BEST.. USED PROPERLY AND FITTED PROPERLY IT WILL MAKE YOUR DOG A OBEIDIENCE CHAMP.. UNFORTUNATELY IVE SEEN ALOT OF PEOPLE WITH THEM ON TOO LOOSE OR EVEN WITH THE PRONGS FACING OUTWARDS.. BUT THIS IS ALL WE USE IN OUR HOUSEHOLD AND OUR 4 MO OLD PUP HEELS LIKE A PRO ALLREADY..
Please do not post in all caps....

Well I do not think that is the proper way to use a prong collar on a 4 month old pup IMO is being too hard. using a prong collar inside out actually has it's uses on younger dogs who will graduate to a prong but only need a martingale for now. There are too many people who use the prong on the wring type of dog, if your dog is scared of a prong and that is why he is not pulling instead of properly teaching not to pull that is just as bad as a dog pulling on a slip chain and choking. Prongs do have their place but not to make a 4 month old puppy to stay in heel position when a simple flat collar at that age is perfectly fine, frankly I find that a bit abusive.

This is post is to help owners choose safe equipment I do not condone the use of prongs to jerk the heck out of dogs just to have them submit, that is not the proper use of them.
 

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Please do not post in all caps....

Well I do not think that is the proper way to use a prong collar on a 4 month old pup IMO is being too hard. using a prong collar inside out actually has it's uses on younger dogs who will graduate to a prong but only need a martingale for now. There are too many people who use the prong on the wring type of dog, if your dog is scared of a prong and that is why he is not pulling instead of properly teaching not to pull that is just as bad as a dog pulling on a slip chain and choking. Prongs do have their place but not to make a 4 month old puppy to stay in heel position when a simple flat collar at that age is perfectly fine, frankly I find that a bit abusive.

This is post is to help owners choose safe equipment I do not condone the use of prongs to jerk the heck out of dogs just to have them submit, that is not the proper use of them.
I have to agree with Lisa's post, especially the bold statements. IMO, using any type of corrective collar on a pup that young is only sure to do one thing, break your pup's spirit and the trust he/she has for you as their leader!

Thank you for this informative thread Lisa. I love the knowledge you have and share with us here on this forum. I am proud to be a part of this forum, whereas forums I've been a part of in the past were all about who's dog was best and that was it. No real info was given or guidance offered to newbs.
 

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Please do not post in all caps....

Well I do not think that is the proper way to use a prong collar on a 4 month old pup IMO is being too hard. using a prong collar inside out actually has it's uses on younger dogs who will graduate to a prong but only need a martingale for now. There are too many people who use the prong on the wring type of dog, if your dog is scared of a prong and that is why he is not pulling instead of properly teaching not to pull that is just as bad as a dog pulling on a slip chain and choking. Prongs do have their place but not to make a 4 month old puppy to stay in heel position when a simple flat collar at that age is perfectly fine, frankly I find that a bit abusive.

This is post is to help owners choose safe equipment I do not condone the use of prongs to jerk the heck out of dogs just to have them submit, that is not the proper use of them.
:goodpost: Using a prong that early on can cause some major long term problems. I dont really see a reason for a pup to require this type of training tool. Let a pup be a pup, if your having that much of an issue that early on something else is going on and chances are its not the pup.
 

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well quite frankly used right it does not hurt any age dog just applys pressure evenly.. i have trained dogs for over 20 years and never had a problem.. jerking on a choke collar is way more harsh than using a prong collar CORRECTLY.. the dogs learn way faster and honestly you hardly even have to do any corrections.. you just start easy and ive never had a dog scared of a training collar.. this is just my opinion and what works for me.. my dogs have a great life and would never be abused.lol
 

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Well I do not think that is the proper way to use a prong collar on a 4 month old pup IMO is being too hard. using a prong collar inside out actually has it's uses on younger dogs who will graduate to a prong but only need a martingale for now. There are too many people who use the prong on the wring type of dog, if your dog is scared of a prong and that is why he is not pulling instead of properly teaching not to pull that is just as bad as a dog pulling on a slip chain and choking. Prongs do have their place but not to make a 4 month old puppy to stay in heel position when a simple flat collar at that age is perfectly fine, frankly I find that a bit abusive.

This is post is to help owners choose safe equipment I do not condone the use of prongs to jerk the heck out of dogs just to have them submit, that is not the proper use of them.
:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:
 

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I use the prong collar on Gambit, we got him one around a year old and it works great on him. I'm going to get one for Storm as well. We didn't want to put one on here when she was pregnant, and the pups don't even use leashes outside. They do when we leave the yard of course, but at 3-4m old they won't dare leave our side yet. The 3m old Havoc won't even walk on a leash. If you try to take him off the property he back peddals to the front door like oh no I'm not going out there. LoL.
 

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What would be the right age to start a pup on a prong collar? Rosey is almost 6 months now. We used to walk her using her flat collar but she is a puller and would just lean into the collar and end up choking herself out. We were worried about damaging her trachea so we switched to a easy-walk harness when she was about 4.5 months. It's been working ok and we have been working on training her not to pull. I'm worried about the long-term use of the easy-walk given that she is still growing.

Is she still too young to start on a prong collar? From what I'm reading it seems like it safest alternative. If she's too young, then when would be the best time to start?
 
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