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Work them Pet Bulls!
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay, At my OB class this morning I had a few things said and asked of me that really turned me off from this trainer I go to. Maybe he was having a bad day I don't know. I have been with him for 5 weeks and he has had nothing but nice positive things to say about Bella. Well, the past two weeks in his class he has over-booked himself and we have had 9 dogs which in the small space that we work in is to much. When I first started with him it was only 4 dogs. Now, this trainer has been training for over 25 years and is a level 9 trainer which I guess in the training world is very advanced :confused:. He had told me that he had been working with pit bulls and bully breeds for the past ten years. He had two dogs in class with E-collars on and everytime these dogs get zapped they flinch and yelp. Today he sold an E-collar for $225.00 to the dude in my class with the Old Southern Bulldog( looks like a French mastiff crossed with hound and American bulldog.) This bulldog is the most layed back slob, not DA and listens real well to his owners commands. Why this trainer is pushing and E-collar for this dog is beyond me. Oh wait....could it be $$$$$$! So, I was one of the last people left talking and I was talking to this woman who has been with the trainer for 2 years. She has a pit bull/rottweiler cross who is a great dog. This woman can put her dog on a stay, leave the room for 3-5 minutes while we are doing other things around him and he WILL not break command until the owner comes in and tells him to. He is awesome but he was also trained with an E-collar and prong collar. The lady with the pit/rott cross asked me why I don't use a prong collar on Bella. I told her I do not feel the need to as of yet because she walks great and heels. She was like but if you use one you can make her do whatever you want her to do and she will listen better.....Ugh! She was like you should really use one they are great. Then, the trainer comes walking over to speak to us and starts talking to me about E-collars and how I should get one for Bella :( I was like what???? Didn't you just tell me two weeks ago how great of a dog I have and well behaved she is. He said well.....I see a couple things in her that make me think she will become aggressive and you know by the time they are 2 it will be seen even more. I wouldn't want you to have to re-home her :mad: WTF! really dude!
Don't use your scare tactics on me. I have other trainers I can go to that use positive reinforcement and not electrical shocks and jabs to the neck. I said your scare tactics aren't going to work on me :mad:
I said to the trainer....next saturday is my last class with you and I planned on taking my training further, but if your way of training is shocking dogs that don't need to be shocked then TODAY will be my last class. I said I'm no moron or some un-educated idiot that you can scare and make do what you want me to do. I grew up with GSD's, I was a professional groomer for 15 years and vet tech. I know the scare tactics people in the animal field can use to get owners to do whatever they are told for there animals and I'm not falling for it. I was so PO I was shaking! Oh, and the dude with the Old Southern Bulldog asked me If I would breed Bella to his dog because they would make some fine @ss puppies and we could make some $$$$$!

Thank god I am going to a party tonight because I NEED A DRINK :hammer:
 

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Oh God, sounds like a head ache! I think even if my dogs didn`t listen I`d never resort to shock therapy. I could only imagine what would happen to me if my mom used electroshock therapy on me (I was a wild child lol)! It`s not good for humans, it`s not good for dogs.
Glad you`re taking her to a new trainer.

LOL some sweet @$$ Mutts rotfl. I love mutts dont get me wrong, but breeding to purposely produce mutts? Mmm nope.
 

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Pits Are For Chicks
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Both prong collars and E-collars can be great training tools if needed for your varying sport or training and if used properly.

I however see no reason to be using an E-collar for a dog without serious issues in a basic training situation, but I am not a trainer so who knows.... Not something I would do tho.

A prong collar however I do use and often as it is an excellent training tool even for more beginning areas of training.
 

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I see nothing wrong with shock collars if used properly...most do not use them properly...but he is just trying to sell you on them. I rarely see a need for them in alot of training I only use mine for field trial training and distance training.
 

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Both prong collars and E-collars can be excellent training tools if needed for your varying sport or training and if used properly.

I however see no reason to be using an E-collar for a dog without serious issues in a basic training situation, but I am not a trainer so how knows.... Not something I would do tho.

A prong collar however I do use and often as it is an excellent training tool of even lower areas of training.
Posted just before I...good post!
 

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Work them Pet Bulls!
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I am going to drop the trainer an email. I am NOT going back to his class. As a "professional" trainer for 25 years how can you go from saying you have a great "well behaved" dog to you should get a shock collar because I see a couple things in her that are making me see "issues" down the road :confused: I need to call him out on it and ask him what "issues" he sees. Or did he just have a stick up his butt today and took some negative feed back from a client out on me. Either way its no excuse and as layed back as Bella is in class showing no DA with nine dogs and tight quarters and laying down all relaxed as well as taking commands from me in a crazy loud enviroment..... Shock collar my butt! I may get a prong collar, I have used them before for my GSD's and ACD (Cattle Dog) I used to have. Sometimes using those is like power steering LOL! But for now Bella is showing no reason to put an E-collar or prong on her. Question for anyone willing to answer??? When you use a Prong collar are you supposed to snap your dog so hard with it on that they yelp and lay down shaking anxiously??
 
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Fat-Dogs-R-Us
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I am going to drop the trainer an email. I am NOT going back to his class. As a "professional" trainer for 25 years how can you go from saying you have a great "well behaved" dog to you should get a shock collar because I see a couple things in her that are making me see "issues" down the road :confused: I need to call him out on it and ask him what "issues" he sees. Or did he just have a stick up his butt today and took some negative feed back from a client out on me. Either way its no excuse and as layed back as Bella is in class showing no DA with nine dogs and tight quarters and laying down all relaxed as well as taking commands from me in a crazy loud enviroment..... Shock collar my butt! I may get a prong collar, I have used them before for my GSD's and ACD (Cattle Dog) I used to have. Sometimes using those is like power steering LOL! But for now Bella is showing no reason to put an E-collar or prong on her. Question for anyone willing to answer??? When you use a Prong collar are you supposed to snap your dog so hard with it on that they yelp and lay down shaking anxiously??
To correctly use the prong collar you are supposed to pop the leash. The corrections are supposed to be consitent from the time you discover which level of compulsion is needed to regain it's focus on you and your command. It can't be gentle this time and more firm the next. Consitency is the key. My dog Cree is such a butt head at obedience training. He will scream at any pressure around his neck because he thinks he knows how to work me, not that it actually hurts him.

I have no problem when prongs nor e collars when used correctly. If this is your first bulldog I guarantee you will learn a looot more about these dogs around 5 years down the road.

The goal in training is obviously to use the least force as possible which is why your timing as a handler for giving corrections and rewards need to be on point. You have 1.5 seconds between the command and either a reward or a correction otherwise your dog will not fully understand why he or she is being rewarded or corrected. When training use small smelly treats that are easily swallowed in one gulp rather than chewing. By the time they bite down then swallow they don't associate the food with the command.

Some sort of compulsion is necessary for all training especially as you become more advanced.

If you train like you are not using the prong or e-collar, the rarities you DO have to use it will remained etched in their brain.
 
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Ive never had to use a choke or a prong collar. Harlow is the best example of this, his whole world is to please me. We dont use too many treats during practicing what he has already been taught, so he doesnt expect a treat every time he does something I ask him to do. He can get bull headed and not want to listen and will just sit there. When he does this we go to practice his favorite trick - heel. Believe it or not his favorite command is heeling. I`ll take him out back and walk him around the yard on no leash practicing 'heel', or we will go out to the dog run behind my yard and practice on leash (if other dogs are around) and off leash when we are alone. (He heels great off leash with other dogs, he is not distracted, but I dont want to take that risk so he is always leashed when another dog or person is present.) After about 5-10 mins of this he is ready to get back to work learning.
I plan on enrolling all of my dogs in intermediate and advanced puppy classes this next month. I hope the trainers I talk to don`t turn out like this guy. :/
 

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Ive never had to use a choke or a prong collar. Harlow is the best example of this, his whole world is to please me. We dont use too many treats during practicing what he has already been taught, so he doesnt expect a treat every time he does something I ask him to do. He can get bull headed and not want to listen and will just sit there. When he does this we go to practice his favorite trick - heel. Believe it or not his favorite command is heeling. I`ll take him out back and walk him around the yard on no leash practicing 'heel', or we will go out to the dog run behind my yard and practice on leash (if other dogs are around) and off leash when we are alone. (He heels great off leash with other dogs, he is not distracted, but I dont want to take that risk so he is always leashed when another dog or person is present.) After about 5-10 mins of this he is ready to get back to work learning.
I plan on enrolling all of my dogs in intermediate and advanced puppy classes this next month. I hope the trainers I talk to don`t turn out like this guy. :/
IMO, better safe than sorry. The whole reason you partake in training your dog is to be able to have mind control over them. If they don't get anymore than a "no" as a correction you're going to be SOL in an enviornment that kicks in your dogs natural drive and instincts because they don't know what to expect as for reprocussions to not listening to your command. Are you doing competition heeling or just loose leash walking?
 

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I am a trainer and I use both! However I hate these new trainers or this new way of training with e collars where they basically want to kick the dogs but into submission and have them lay down and shut up. To me that defeats the purpose of having a dog. I love prong collars and they can be used in various ways but if you pop sop hard the dog is cowering then the correction is too much for that dog. You want enough correction to stop the behavior but not crush the dog. Also if you are hitting a dog on an e collar and they are yelping you are doing it WRONG! Again the correction should be enough to stop the behavior not crush them. I would find another train and yes those are scar tactics and that is unethical of that trainer to do that. I make living training dogs I do not making a living scamming people.

I was going to start a thread about this because Barca is a hard head and it is time to break out the e collar for teaching him to let go. Short of a breakstick nothing gets him to let go of his toy or schutzhund sleeve. I am going to have to use a e collar to give a harder correction but I have to be careful I do not over correct or I will have worse problems. I use E collars for all sorts of problems but many trainers over use them or use them incorrectly and RUIN DOGS!

So find another trainer!! If your dog does fine on a slip or flat collar I see no reason for a prong. BUT if your dog flips you the paw and you correct them and they just smile back..... then it's time for a more aggressive correction like a prong.

If I saw an ower pop a dog in my class and it was cowering I would put that dog on a slip chain or martingale collar. Now I have had dogs be babies on prongs and yip for no good reason when corrected but they were not cowering.
 

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IMO, better safe than sorry. The whole reason you partake in training your dog is to be able to have mind control over them. If they don't get anymore than a "no" as a correction you're going to be SOL in an enviornment that kicks in your dogs natural drive and instincts because they don't know what to expect as for reprocussions to not listening to your command. Are you doing competition heeling or just loose leash walking?
I agree, better safe than sorry.
we are just walking. I only do the heel because its something he really enjoys doing and I find he learns better and is more willing to learn new things when we do things he likes to do. I feel it`s like a compromise. He feels more confident after a nice little heeling practice session 10 min walk in the back yard (which is all fenced in). We have only visited the HOA public dog run (which isnt really big & directly behind my house), three times. I had taken him (very early in the morning) to this area and taken him off leash when no other people or animals were present only twice. Every time else, he has always stayed on leash. I just moved to this neighborhood and I don`t trust the other dog owners in this neighborhood. (Keep in mind he`s still a baby at 4 months old.)
There are two separations in my yard by fences. You exit the house on to the patio. There is a fence and a gate that separates the patio from the grass area, then there`s another fence and gate which connects from the grass yard area directly to the "Dog run area". (these gates are shut at all times and mine and my roomies dogs are too big to fit through the fence).
This has been my blessing lol, I have woke up a couple mornings with a pair of small poodle mix dogs having slipped through my fence and are wandering around in my grass.
There was even one morning I woke up and took Harlow out and was cleaning up the dog poop and a HUGE French Mastiff tried to attack us through the fence.
We even had an aggressive Corgi charge us while it was off leash (My boy was on the leash), the owner couldn`t control it. While Harlow kept his calm and remained in sit behind me and didn`t react, I know this will cause future problems after he sexually matures. (this was the evening before the poodles showed up in my back yard)
As mentioned, there was two times where I had taken him (very early in the morning) to the "Dog Run" area and taken him off leash when no other people or animals were present, but since the first time the poodles were in my back yard, I haven`t taken him back there.
I don`t want to set him up for failure and there is a mandatory leash law in my area so he`s never out without a leash.

I didn`t know there was competition heeling. I`m going to have to check this out.
 

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Work them Pet Bulls!
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I love prong collars and they can be used in various ways but if you pop sop hard the dog is cowering then the correction is too much for that dog. You want enough correction to stop the behavior but not crush the dog. Also if you are hitting a dog on an e collar and they are yelping you are doing it WRONG! Again the correction should be enough to stop the behavior not crush them. I would find another train and yes those are scar tactics and that is unethical of that trainer to do that. I make living training dogs I do not making a living scamming people.
Thanks for giving me the answer I was expecting. The reason why I asked this is because the "trainer" has a 15 month old GSD that he brings with him (his demo dog) that he also does Schutzhund with and speaks in german commands. He also worked with police K9's for years and he (the trainer) is the one popping his dogs prong collar so hard that he yelps and either cowers or lays down shaking. I just feel terrible for his dog. He is such a sweet boy to :(
 

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When I first started Schutzhund almost 14 years ago now that is how we trained. Very tough on the dogs and lots of compulsion. We over used e collars and prong collars, now everyone has learned you get better results with motivation but you still need some correction when appropriate. It sounds like he is still really old school by squishing them into submission and the good trainers have moved past that. Find a new trainer, I wish you were closer I am starting a class next week ;)
 

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Work them Pet Bulls!
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
When I first started Schutzhund almost 14 years ago now that is how we trained. Very tough on the dogs and lots of compulsion. We over used e collars and prong collars, now everyone has learned you get better results with motivation but you still need some correction when appropriate. It sounds like he is still really old school by squishing them into submission and the good trainers have moved past that. Find a new trainer, I wish you were closer I am starting a class next week ;)
I wish I was closer too :( I would have been honored to train with you :) He is OLD school definately.....He's in his mid 60's. In some classes he has done more talking about schutzhund than he has done training with his OB clients. He likes to talk to the dude with the Old southern bulldog about schutzhund. The same dude who wants me to breed Bella with his dog :rolleyes: I am all for E-collars if you have a dog with behavioral issues. I have a friend who has a HA and DA American Bulldog. She consulted a trainer and he recomended the collar. There is still no hope for this bully...he has been aggressive since he was 10 weeks and now he is 14 months. I won't even go to her house anymore because he is so aggressive and she doesn't feel the need to crate him half the time away from guests. It's scary, but she is in denial for sure. He will definately end up hurting someone eventually. That dog is like a ticking time bomb.
 

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My traininer is great. Its "Wicked Good Dog" in Quincy, take a look at her site, but she has different level and if you pass you can go on to the next level. She will do individual classes, but loves all dogs and I had her help me with Mel when I was concerned and she helped me realize Mel was reacting out of fear, not aggression. She is really great. She is also the dog walker I hire when I need to go on vacation with him. They also have people come and spend the night in your house if you don't want to board your dog when you go on vacation. Take a look and if you like we could try and go together. Overun the class with "dangerous" Pits and maybe we will have less people come to our sessions, lol.
 
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