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So If I understand correctly you are stating that by not allowing dogs to play or interact as much they will want to please you more and depend less on wanting to interact with other dogs?
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 · (Edited)
So If I understand correctly you are stating that by not allowing dogs to play or interact as much they will want to please you more and depend less on wanting to interact with other dogs?
Some what.. In short..

Dogs playing with dogs - While can be beneficial is not needed for socializing as simply meeting, smelling and small interaction consistently will prove results. Of course this is just the dog aspect, environments, humans, etc the dog needs to be exposed to all sorts of situations to be well adjusted and confident. The biggest point i am making is playing with other dogs, heavily interacted on a day to day basis does not equal or amount to the same thing as socialization. What i am saying when it comes to this particular piece of socializing, playing and socialization are separate. Not one of the same.

As to the working dog and handler aspect yes, the less interaction (im not saying no interaction as all dogs need to be socialized) the dog has with other dogs on an every day basis there is an increase on dependability on you therefore the eager to work for you does go up.

Now, am i saying that if a dog plays with other dog(s) say once a week will not pay attention to commands, etc? No. I am not. However i am not talking about pets here i am talking about working bred dogs. Dogs kept together, interaction with each other on an every day basis, plays together so on so forth there is going to be a certain level (small to significant) of dependency on human (you) dropped as they thrive and depend more on dog - dog companionship. Are there exceptions? Yes.

You will also note that in my OP i have acknowledged that if you are planning on working with packs the levels of interaction does need to change to some degree.
 

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hunting dogs are kept together though, how would or what can they do to isolate them ?

Do you not see hunting dogs as working dogs ?
 

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"As to the working dog and handler aspect yes, the less interaction (im not saying no interaction as all dogs need to be socialized) the dog has with other dogs on an every day basis there is an increase on dependability on you therefore the eager to work for you does go up."

How can a hunting dog succeed on the field by being kept isolated from its hunting team?
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
hunting dogs are kept together though, how would or what can they do to isolate them ?

Do you not see hunting dogs as working dogs ?
Intentional or not you know how i feel about hunting dogs therefore you know the answer and this is just going to end in back and forth. For most of your questions if you re read all my posts you will find the answers. While i can go into this particular question further you and i both know this will turn into another bickering and pointless back and forth. With that said just agree to disagree and move on from this as you have already i believe made your points on this thread. Chose to view this as you wish though as in my OP i stated i want this kept educational and informative rather than being moved to VIP for something pointless.

This thread has potential to be an excellent read for newbies or those seeking answers and in the general forum its an excellent place for a source of information. I'm not going to ruin it because you feel the need to keep going. (you know how that always turns out so don't play naive)
 

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I am trying to keep it educational but im confused by your postings. Perhaps if you specified the intended use for the working dog it would clear that up. I agree with you on not meeting strange dogs I utilize scenario socialization, I never want my dog to think it's cool to run up to try to play with another strange dog on the street so I never allowed that scenario to take place. In a sense im proving yor point that perhaps in the street while walking all my dog needs is me. I however also established a situational variation that if I walk any dog in the backyard it's safe and he can play but never dominate. My dog barely plays with other dogs, I would never take him to a dog park. If he plays with another dog once a month it is a lot there are only a few family dogs he is allowed to play with on my terms.
 

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I think a good advice for the newbies is to take your pup to a carefully monitored puppy social by a professional trainer as soon as it is done with the shots for at least 2-3 sessions. After that, it should be all leashed obedience classes in front of strange dogs and people.
 

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OK, Km, I'm home and took the time while at work to write some notes on why I disagree that limiting social interaction for your dog increases their dependency on you and their motivation to work for you (or increases their eager to please nature).

^ if that doesn't sound like what you meant, please correct me now.

And don't let David run you off because I really do want to discuss this with you, LOL.

Shoot, just realized the time stamp, haha. *slaps self* Oh well, typing them up anyways.
 

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I have been socializing Vendetta since she was 6wks old. I got her at 4wks. She goes everyplace with me. I have had her in tracking classes, rally classes, agility and flyball. She knows how to behave in public to ignore other dogs this is because I have exposed her to everything I could find. I take her stores, hospitals, parks, festivels. I dont let her play with other dogs anymore I stopped that when she was about 15mos. We quit flyball before she decided to turn on another dog. Ity was good for her to work with them and it was perfect for me to work on her leave it command.

Socialization does not = dog interaction time.
 

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Ok, so first, I want to say that it's obvious we come from two different backgrounds with dogs. I have more familiarity with "pet dogs" and the use of "new age" methods (as per your quotes there) because that is what I have experience with and what has worked for me, and you clearly have more familiarity and experience with "working dogs" and more traditional methods. Whatever works. :) So, I know we're coming from two different ends of the spectrum, I'm just trying to figure your viewpoint out and why you feel it's necessary to limit a dog's interaction with another in order to increase their dependency on you and their desire to work for you.

These are the reasons I disagree with it (sorry if they're a bit haphazard, if you need clarification just ask):

1) We already control and provide for every aspect of our dog's life. We determine when and what they eat, what they are allowed to do and when, we provide them shelter and companionship. From the time they are a puppy, dogs are dependent on us and, IMO, it's hard for them to become any MORE dependent on us.

2) Dogs have been domesticated for 10s of thousands of years. We've developed a bond with them that is incomparable to any other domesticated animal, period. For most of those several thousand years (in fact, up until a little over a hundred years ago) dogs were primarily used as tools. Dogs had to earn their place in our lives and if they didn't WANT to work with us, then we didn't keep them around--it's been that way since the very beginning. So, dogs already have millions of generations of dogs with a desire to work together with their humans. It's already BUILT IN.

3) IMO, an eager to please attitude can be built on, but the genetic foundation has to be there. There are some dogs that are more stoic with their humans and no amount of limiting their interaction with other dogs is going to do anything about that. In fact, I fail to see how that has anything to do with it. Feel free to clarify because it's late and my brain is tired from work BS.

4) If you have a dog that enjoys the company of other dogs, it doesn't necessarily mean they enjoy your company any less. In fact, it's been conclusively shown that the majority of dogs value their human's companionship over other dogs--probably due to the effects of several thousand years of domestication and our efforts to employ them as valuable tools used for guarding, hunting, herding, what have you. And quite frankly, when you think about it, it just doesn't make any sense for them to value a dog's company over ours--when we provide them with EVERYTHING versus another dog providing play and ... that's it.

5) If you have a dog with a high desire to interact/play with other dogs, you can actually use that to increase their focus on you by moderating their access to other dogs and making them WORK for their interactions with other dogs. I've employed this with Kane; I make him do several commands before getting to interact with another dogs, especially when he's amped up. It calms him down, gets him focused on me and how he should be behaving, and then he's rewarded when he's calm by getting what he wanted in the first place.
 

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you will notice with bulldogs they are always trying to one up each other or trying to dominate each other the problem comes in when the other dog won't submit or that both dogs are fighting for control or ownership over each other that is why these dogs will fight so quickly and without warning.
I stopped taking Kane to doggy daycare at ~year old because of an incident in Petsmart when a lab greeted Kane fine and then tried to initiate play very rudely by putting his paws on Kane's shoulder. I managed to quickly step between them, basically shoving the lab to the side, as Kane went stiff and growled. The lady didn't mind, knew her lab was being rude, and I appreciated Kane not just going off on the dog, but taking the time to growl a warning.

I believe socialization has helped with that--although I know it's by no means a certainty, anymore. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
I have been socializing Vendetta since she was 6wks old. I got her at 4wks. She goes everyplace with me. I have had her in tracking classes, rally classes, agility and flyball. She knows how to behave in public to ignore other dogs this is because I have exposed her to everything I could find. I take her stores, hospitals, parks, festivels. I dont let her play with other dogs anymore I stopped that when she was about 15mos. We quit flyball before she decided to turn on another dog. Ity was good for her to work with them and it was perfect for me to work on her leave it command.

Socialization does not = dog interaction time.
:goodpost:

Ok, so first, I want to say that it's obvious we come from two different backgrounds with dogs. I have more familiarity with "pet dogs" and the use of "new age" methods (as per your quotes there) because that is what I have experience with and what has worked for me, and you clearly have more familiarity and experience with "working dogs" and more traditional methods. Whatever works. :) So, I know we're coming from two different ends of the spectrum, I'm just trying to figure your viewpoint out and why you feel it's necessary to limit a dog's interaction with another in order to increase their dependency on you and their desire to work for you.

These are the reasons I disagree with it (sorry if they're a bit haphazard, if you need clarification just ask):

1) We already control and provide for every aspect of our dog's life. We determine when and what they eat, what they are allowed to do and when, we provide them shelter and companionship. From the time they are a puppy, dogs are dependent on us and, IMO, it's hard for them to become any MORE dependent on us.

2) Dogs have been domesticated for 10s of thousands of years. We've developed a bond with them that is incomparable to any other domesticated animal, period. For most of those several thousand years (in fact, up until a little over a hundred years ago) dogs were primarily used as tools. Dogs had to earn their place in our lives and if they didn't WANT to work with us, then we didn't keep them around--it's been that way since the very beginning. So, dogs already have millions of generations of dogs with a desire to work together with their humans. It's already BUILT IN.

3) IMO, an eager to please attitude can be built on, but the genetic foundation has to be there. There are some dogs that are more stoic with their humans and no amount of limiting their interaction with other dogs is going to do anything about that. In fact, I fail to see how that has anything to do with it. Feel free to clarify because it's late and my brain is tired from work BS.

4) If you have a dog that enjoys the company of other dogs, it doesn't necessarily mean they enjoy your company any less. In fact, it's been conclusively shown that the majority of dogs value their human's companionship over other dogs--probably due to the effects of several thousand years of domestication and our efforts to employ them as valuable tools used for guarding, hunting, herding, what have you. And quite frankly, when you think about it, it just doesn't make any sense for them to value a dog's company over ours--when we provide them with EVERYTHING versus another dog providing play and ... that's it.

5) If you have a dog with a high desire to interact/play with other dogs, you can actually use that to increase their focus on you by moderating their access to other dogs and making them WORK for their interactions with other dogs. I've employed this with Kane; I make him do several commands before getting to interact with another dogs, especially when he's amped up. It calms him down, gets him focused on me and how he should be behaving, and then he's rewarded when he's calm by getting what he wanted in the first place.
Well first and foremost if you do note a few of my posts now have gone over how genetics does play an important part of a dogs overall drive and willingness. A dominate dog will be dominate, submissive will be submissive, prey drive will have prey drive, etc.

I suppose a good example of what im talking about when it comes to socialization, dog interaction, playing with other dogs, etc would be to look at police k9 training programs and military training k9 programs. There is reason why these dogs are limited to dog interaction however trained, perform exercises, etc with other dogs around. These dogs are sound, confident, full of drive and obey handlers. There is a military k9 training facility about 40 minutes away from me and i have spoken on several different occasions one of the trainers for the program. Im not fully familiar with each individual training program out there but i know that they get their dogs after being socialized, basic training is completed. What they do there is test, keep and train these dogs to be deployed for whatever the needs may be. They do not allow these dogs to play with each other or interact except when on the field training or performing various exercises. The reason being has much to do with what i have already been speaking of.

Now eager to please is one thing though when we are talking about working dogs the drive for any given work is either bred into them or it isnt. They have it or they dont. Its not really something you can "teach" a dog to do.

I'm not really sure if i can explain the rest any clearer for you. Maybe a nights rest would help that thought.
 

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It would be silly to socialize a fighting dog if that is what you are going to use the dog for. If you have working class hunters they need to be socialized tremendously in order to achieve a functional Pack, just like you need to heavily socialize a live stock guarding so it will work together with its counterparts and protect the farm animals. Gamedogs are a
Completely different subject, it's like expecting a rottie to love strangers. If someone lives in a community where there are other dogs or people a responsible owner needs to have a controlled interaction environment in order to build confidence so the dog won't seek to destroy everything it fears. Why do we have all these attacks happen? Dogs never walked or exposed to the outside world suddenly escape and kill the first thing they see and bite whoever gets in the way. In my opinion not socializing a dog is creating a ticking time bomb.

As noted in the video it shows a pack hunting mentality and these are pure working dogs. The mighty Alano is in that pack and without socializing them as pups with all these dogs they could never function because they would go after the other dogs and not serve the purpose. A regular dog owner should have built a basic socialization foundation in the early months of the puppy's life in order to program confidence and acceptance. Dogs communicate better with other dogs than humans, perhaps fighting dogs have been reprogrammed to loose this connectivity with other dogs but to say all working dogs only need humans and no interaction with their kind is a bit unrealistic.
Why are you talking about hunting dogs when this is an pit bull forum? We are not talking hound here we are talking pit bulls. Hounds or hog dogs do not need to be socialize with other dogs only the one they live with and work with. Being social in your own pack of dogs is not the same and meeting and greeting outside dogs. Two totally difference concepts.
Can you stop with the comparison to hunting packs like hounds?

Look KMdogs has it pretty much spot on. You do not have to have your dog go and meet other dogs to socialize them properly. I will let my pups play with other pups on leash but that stops at about 6-8 months of age. No matter what breed of dog they do not need to play with other dogs to have a fulfilled life. NO BREED belongs in dog parks they are horrible for man reasons that I will not get into in this thread. Meeting strange dogs can lead to aggression and with a DA breed like we have it is not worth the risk!

Now lets talk working dogs............ Letting a dog who is being raised for working sports like Obed, Agility, Schutzhund, Rally, or what ever it is, play with other dogs can be counter productive. If you are a serious competitor you want full attention on you as a handler not on everything else. I teach my puppies very early on that they are not to focus on anything else besides me. If they look away I give a little pop and as soon as they look back at me I praise and feed. They need to ignore all dogs and people. By letting them visit people and other dogs I am teaching them it is ok to lose focus on me and play with what every they want. I should be what they want not another dog or person. A dog who lives out in a kennel and is removed from house life is far more willing to please than a dog who lives with you every second of the day. They crave that attention and give you more focus. The top competitors of sports like Schutzhund do not have dogs living in the house until they are retired. They all love outside in kennels so they look forward to learning and being engaged with you. It is a lot more complicated than that but you can get the idea. My pups live in the house till about 8 months then they get moves out to the dog runs and get out when I work them. When they retire they can come live in the house but not until then.

Now most people here do not have working dogs and do not need to keep them separated however you still do not need to have they meet every one and everything to socialize them properly. A confident dog does not have to have play buddies they can get what they need from you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
Why are you talking about hunting dogs when this is an pit bull forum? We are not talking hound here we are talking pit bulls. Hounds or hog dogs do not need to be socialize with other dogs only the one they live with and work with. Being social in your own pack of dogs is not the same and meeting and greeting outside dogs. Two totally difference concepts.
Can you stop with the comparison to hunting packs like hounds?

Look KMdogs has it pretty much spot on. You do not have to have your dog go and meet other dogs to socialize them properly. I will let my pups play with other pups on leash but that stops at about 6-8 months of age. No matter what breed of dog they do not need to play with other dogs to have a fulfilled life. NO BREED belongs in dog parks they are horrible for man reasons that I will not get into in this thread. Meeting strange dogs can lead to aggression and with a DA breed like we have it is not worth the risk!

Now lets talk working dogs............ Letting a dog who is being raised for working sports like Obed, Agility, Schutzhund, Rally, or what ever it is, play with other dogs can be counter productive. If you are a serious competitor you want full attention on you as a handler not on everything else. I teach my puppies very early on that they are not to focus on anything else besides me. If they look away I give a little pop and as soon as they look back at me I praise and feed. They need to ignore all dogs and people. By letting them visit people and other dogs I am teaching them it is ok to lose focus on me and play with what every they want. I should be what they want not another dog or person. A dog who lives out in a kennel and is removed from house life is far more willing to please than a dog who lives with you every second of the day. They crave that attention and give you more focus. The top competitors of sports like Schutzhund do not have dogs living in the house until they are retired. They all love outside in kennels so they look forward to learning and being engaged with you. It is a lot more complicated than that but you can get the idea. My pups live in the house till about 8 months then they get moves out to the dog runs and get out when I work them. When they retire they can come live in the house but not until then.

Now most people here do not have working dogs and do not need to keep them separated however you still do not need to have they meet every one and everything to socialize them properly. A confident dog does not have to have play buddies they can get what they need from you.
:goodpost: well said!!
 

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Well there sporting dogs and working dogs. The working pit bull is a fightig dog no? I can build drive on any dog by caging it for a couple of days lol and putting it back in the cage again and again. my friend thy actively competes said the same thing about sport dogs getting caged without activity to get them hyper as hell.

Nobody said anything about socializing legit gamebred dogs or at least I didn't and how many newbies buy gamebred dogs and not know they will kill each other ?

Half of those problem dogs in the dog whisper are dogs that are never exercised and they go nuts running around and biting crap. Now if a dog knows how to bite a sleeve or a bite suit a hyper pent up energy dog can be taught to redirect and channel it's energy on that activity. I think this is indirect agitation if you ask me.
 

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Well now that I am back for bits and pieces of time... this thread has grabbed my attention... As someone who has done this both ways... I agree that socialization is not absolutely necessary to have a solid well balanced APBT... Now other breeds I will not speak for and I wont go to the dog prks subject but APBTs do not need other dogs... That said I have had dogs in the past that I have socialized from a pup through adulthood and currently have two that have been socialized as pups but now that they are adults socialization with other dogs is minimal.

Socializing a pup is important so that they understand the logistics of heirarchy and to build confidence in the ability to interact properly. Most of this in my opinion happens or should happen in the first six months of life. Staying on APBTs... Once the six month mark or so is hit this breed does not need or crave other dogs nor does it suffer from not being socialized with other dogs. Some will say they believe that socialization should happen throughout life and that is ok too IF you are aware of the possibilities of this breed. Working dogs are different FOCUS FOCUS FOCUS is what is needed in these dogs and socialization only brings confusion to focus as so perfectly stated by performance kennels...

Now current dogs I have neither of them are strictly working. Sarge at 2 and 1/2 years old and does some weight pull... He lives inside and for all intensive purposes serves as a pet and companion. He as a pup (unitl 9 months) would play with other dogs but only in construction environments that were well supervised. This is not something that he does anymore and in my opinion his obedience to me is 100 times better than ever. Whether this has to do with less socialization or added training since who knows but I am not changing things now. He is allowed on very rare occasions to play with two other dogs that I know but only one on one supervised and it is rare.

Nikita is 1 and 1/2 years and was also socialized frequently as a pup until about 6 months old. She began sniping at other dogs and was stopped from most socialization. She is absolutely 100% DA and since about 3 months ago does not socialize with any other dogs ever except those who live with her and she is fine with that. Her attentiveness to me however did not change one bit but she is much better at focusing on me then Sarge and always has been so I didnt want a change.

Neither of them are allowed to greet unknown dogs on walks or wherever else but that does not mean they are not socialized. They go to Petco and Petsmart and parades and other events... They see other dogs and stranger people but they do not face to face interact... Point is they see them and know that its not going to happen and focus on me instead...

Socialization is important for all breeds but in this breed only to a certain extent or age. This breed was not breed for hunting in packs or anything like that... They were bred primarily for two reasons: 1.Their uncanny ability to be the most loyal companion and 2. Their game... Not because they were good pack or social dogs...
 

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I agree my dog is a driveless bully and he stopped puppy social after two Sessions because he outgrew the class. When someone mentions working dogs the topic will be broad, a true working pit bull is a box dog that was it's existence I thought the OP was talking about general working breeds. If we are talking about gamebred pit bulls I wouldn't take a chance off leash.
 

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dogs meet other dogs over the course of seconds, they arent people. a dog can comunicate a 100 things with just a few seconds glance with another dog.

dogs mainly communicate with smell and facial expression with very little to anything else. a bark tells very little as apposed to thier ears.


my point is, k9 interaction IS being achieved even with just a few seconds. no need for hours at the dog park.
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
the topic has to do with APBT's though i made the topic broader for any type of dogs just for the sake of argument as the general rules can be applied throughout. (unless you want to talk about game dogs, obviously rules change but thats a given) not everyone on this forum has an APBT, for that matter many on here dont even own dogs currently so i wanted to make sure that when someone read it, it could be useful for anyone not just a specific dog breed. (especially someone new to dogs all together)
 
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the topic has to do with APBT's though i made the topic broader for any type of dogs just for the sake of argument as the general rules can be applied throughout. (unless you want to talk about game dogs, obviously rules change but thats a given) not everyone on this forum has an APBT, for that matter many on here dont even own dogs currently so i wanted to make sure that when someone read it, it could be useful for anyone not just a specific dog breed. (especially someone new to dogs all together)
Thank you for clarifying it for everyone else I thought i was the crazy one lol I do part of your theory so I agree with you man.
 
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