So If I understand correctly you are stating that by not allowing dogs to play or interact as much they will want to please you more and depend less on wanting to interact with other dogs?
Some what.. In short..So If I understand correctly you are stating that by not allowing dogs to play or interact as much they will want to please you more and depend less on wanting to interact with other dogs?
Intentional or not you know how i feel about hunting dogs therefore you know the answer and this is just going to end in back and forth. For most of your questions if you re read all my posts you will find the answers. While i can go into this particular question further you and i both know this will turn into another bickering and pointless back and forth. With that said just agree to disagree and move on from this as you have already i believe made your points on this thread. Chose to view this as you wish though as in my OP i stated i want this kept educational and informative rather than being moved to VIP for something pointless.hunting dogs are kept together though, how would or what can they do to isolate them ?
Do you not see hunting dogs as working dogs ?
I stopped taking Kane to doggy daycare at ~year old because of an incident in Petsmart when a lab greeted Kane fine and then tried to initiate play very rudely by putting his paws on Kane's shoulder. I managed to quickly step between them, basically shoving the lab to the side, as Kane went stiff and growled. The lady didn't mind, knew her lab was being rude, and I appreciated Kane not just going off on the dog, but taking the time to growl a warning.you will notice with bulldogs they are always trying to one up each other or trying to dominate each other the problem comes in when the other dog won't submit or that both dogs are fighting for control or ownership over each other that is why these dogs will fight so quickly and without warning.
:goodpost:I have been socializing Vendetta since she was 6wks old. I got her at 4wks. She goes everyplace with me. I have had her in tracking classes, rally classes, agility and flyball. She knows how to behave in public to ignore other dogs this is because I have exposed her to everything I could find. I take her stores, hospitals, parks, festivels. I dont let her play with other dogs anymore I stopped that when she was about 15mos. We quit flyball before she decided to turn on another dog. Ity was good for her to work with them and it was perfect for me to work on her leave it command.
Socialization does not = dog interaction time.
Well first and foremost if you do note a few of my posts now have gone over how genetics does play an important part of a dogs overall drive and willingness. A dominate dog will be dominate, submissive will be submissive, prey drive will have prey drive, etc.Ok, so first, I want to say that it's obvious we come from two different backgrounds with dogs. I have more familiarity with "pet dogs" and the use of "new age" methods (as per your quotes there) because that is what I have experience with and what has worked for me, and you clearly have more familiarity and experience with "working dogs" and more traditional methods. Whatever works. So, I know we're coming from two different ends of the spectrum, I'm just trying to figure your viewpoint out and why you feel it's necessary to limit a dog's interaction with another in order to increase their dependency on you and their desire to work for you.
These are the reasons I disagree with it (sorry if they're a bit haphazard, if you need clarification just ask):
1) We already control and provide for every aspect of our dog's life. We determine when and what they eat, what they are allowed to do and when, we provide them shelter and companionship. From the time they are a puppy, dogs are dependent on us and, IMO, it's hard for them to become any MORE dependent on us.
2) Dogs have been domesticated for 10s of thousands of years. We've developed a bond with them that is incomparable to any other domesticated animal, period. For most of those several thousand years (in fact, up until a little over a hundred years ago) dogs were primarily used as tools. Dogs had to earn their place in our lives and if they didn't WANT to work with us, then we didn't keep them around--it's been that way since the very beginning. So, dogs already have millions of generations of dogs with a desire to work together with their humans. It's already BUILT IN.
3) IMO, an eager to please attitude can be built on, but the genetic foundation has to be there. There are some dogs that are more stoic with their humans and no amount of limiting their interaction with other dogs is going to do anything about that. In fact, I fail to see how that has anything to do with it. Feel free to clarify because it's late and my brain is tired from work BS.
4) If you have a dog that enjoys the company of other dogs, it doesn't necessarily mean they enjoy your company any less. In fact, it's been conclusively shown that the majority of dogs value their human's companionship over other dogs--probably due to the effects of several thousand years of domestication and our efforts to employ them as valuable tools used for guarding, hunting, herding, what have you. And quite frankly, when you think about it, it just doesn't make any sense for them to value a dog's company over ours--when we provide them with EVERYTHING versus another dog providing play and ... that's it.
5) If you have a dog with a high desire to interact/play with other dogs, you can actually use that to increase their focus on you by moderating their access to other dogs and making them WORK for their interactions with other dogs. I've employed this with Kane; I make him do several commands before getting to interact with another dogs, especially when he's amped up. It calms him down, gets him focused on me and how he should be behaving, and then he's rewarded when he's calm by getting what he wanted in the first place.
Why are you talking about hunting dogs when this is an pit bull forum? We are not talking hound here we are talking pit bulls. Hounds or hog dogs do not need to be socialize with other dogs only the one they live with and work with. Being social in your own pack of dogs is not the same and meeting and greeting outside dogs. Two totally difference concepts.It would be silly to socialize a fighting dog if that is what you are going to use the dog for. If you have working class hunters they need to be socialized tremendously in order to achieve a functional Pack, just like you need to heavily socialize a live stock guarding so it will work together with its counterparts and protect the farm animals. Gamedogs are a
Completely different subject, it's like expecting a rottie to love strangers. If someone lives in a community where there are other dogs or people a responsible owner needs to have a controlled interaction environment in order to build confidence so the dog won't seek to destroy everything it fears. Why do we have all these attacks happen? Dogs never walked or exposed to the outside world suddenly escape and kill the first thing they see and bite whoever gets in the way. In my opinion not socializing a dog is creating a ticking time bomb.
As noted in the video it shows a pack hunting mentality and these are pure working dogs. The mighty Alano is in that pack and without socializing them as pups with all these dogs they could never function because they would go after the other dogs and not serve the purpose. A regular dog owner should have built a basic socialization foundation in the early months of the puppy's life in order to program confidence and acceptance. Dogs communicate better with other dogs than humans, perhaps fighting dogs have been reprogrammed to loose this connectivity with other dogs but to say all working dogs only need humans and no interaction with their kind is a bit unrealistic.
:goodpost: well said!!Why are you talking about hunting dogs when this is an pit bull forum? We are not talking hound here we are talking pit bulls. Hounds or hog dogs do not need to be socialize with other dogs only the one they live with and work with. Being social in your own pack of dogs is not the same and meeting and greeting outside dogs. Two totally difference concepts.
Can you stop with the comparison to hunting packs like hounds?
Look KMdogs has it pretty much spot on. You do not have to have your dog go and meet other dogs to socialize them properly. I will let my pups play with other pups on leash but that stops at about 6-8 months of age. No matter what breed of dog they do not need to play with other dogs to have a fulfilled life. NO BREED belongs in dog parks they are horrible for man reasons that I will not get into in this thread. Meeting strange dogs can lead to aggression and with a DA breed like we have it is not worth the risk!
Now lets talk working dogs............ Letting a dog who is being raised for working sports like Obed, Agility, Schutzhund, Rally, or what ever it is, play with other dogs can be counter productive. If you are a serious competitor you want full attention on you as a handler not on everything else. I teach my puppies very early on that they are not to focus on anything else besides me. If they look away I give a little pop and as soon as they look back at me I praise and feed. They need to ignore all dogs and people. By letting them visit people and other dogs I am teaching them it is ok to lose focus on me and play with what every they want. I should be what they want not another dog or person. A dog who lives out in a kennel and is removed from house life is far more willing to please than a dog who lives with you every second of the day. They crave that attention and give you more focus. The top competitors of sports like Schutzhund do not have dogs living in the house until they are retired. They all love outside in kennels so they look forward to learning and being engaged with you. It is a lot more complicated than that but you can get the idea. My pups live in the house till about 8 months then they get moves out to the dog runs and get out when I work them. When they retire they can come live in the house but not until then.
Now most people here do not have working dogs and do not need to keep them separated however you still do not need to have they meet every one and everything to socialize them properly. A confident dog does not have to have play buddies they can get what they need from you.
Thank you for clarifying it for everyone else I thought i was the crazy one lol I do part of your theory so I agree with you man.the topic has to do with APBT's though i made the topic broader for any type of dogs just for the sake of argument as the general rules can be applied throughout. (unless you want to talk about game dogs, obviously rules change but thats a given) not everyone on this forum has an APBT, for that matter many on here dont even own dogs currently so i wanted to make sure that when someone read it, it could be useful for anyone not just a specific dog breed. (especially someone new to dogs all together)