[Saint Francis]

Not sure if this is the correct spot to discuss this, so feel free to move it where you want. OK, all you genetic brainiacs, I totally get the dominant vs. recessive trait school of thought, and how the different pairings present themselves in various individuals. However, what I never did understand was how, unlike a physical trait being passed on, an emotional or psychological trait such as dispositon or temperament is passed on to various offspring? I mean how is such a trait even studied geneologically? The very basis for which we admire this breed, being determination/gameness, is what I'm talking about, and it's something that can't be put under a microscope. Or can it? If, say two or three littermates out of eight exhibit superior gameness, can we say IN FACT that it came from the sire/dam, or are we just going by the law of averages? I suppose if there was a real life test to determine such a trait, it would have been common knowledge and would have probably lowered significantly the number of litters born over the years, and would have made it quite easy to get the "gamest" dogs out there from one trip to the laboratory. So, what say you oh wise ones? Learn me LOL!!!

 

[Lex's Guardian]

Are you basing this theory solely on dogs or genetic psychological traits in general?

3 out of 8 in a litter seems like a small percentage & that you could get that out of any breed? But I'm still learning, am curious to see what others have to say

Nice thread idea Christian

 

[aimee235]

Multiple genes are probably responsible to produce certain temperaments. I think determination/gameness could be studied and a genetic link be found. This is where certain genetic things get harder. When multiple genes are responsible it's harder to find a way to reproduce. I would say though that both parents would have to be responsible for the outcome of the litter and whether any pups were game. I mean just cause a male produced game pups before when bred to a female APBT does not mean when he is bred to a poodle you will get some game pitadoodles.

 

[Saint Francis]

HA HA I really don't know what I'm saying I just wonder how psychological traits are passed down, I mean is there a gene that is responsible for generational temperament or gameness information? Or is it a matter of "this pup seems extra rowdy or shy" as the determining factor? I mean some real game dogs have produced some very cold dogs and vise versa. I always read about breeders breeding for temperament or whatever and that this stuff is passed down, but how? How do you put your finger on something pychological or chemical? Sometimes you hear that a sire or dam was particularly hot and that they should produce the same in their pups, but how? IDK

 

[Chump]

You bring up an interesting topic. When personality traits first began to be mapped they used labrador retrievers who feared water and labs who didn't fear water. Even though a lot of that is enviromental, they were able to map loci on genes that carried over to different breeds of dogs. It is pretty interesting stuff. This was back when I was in undergrad, (seven years ago) so I am sure it is more advanced now.

 

[k8nkane]

You know, there's an interesting study going on in ... Russia (?), I believe, in regards to taming/domestication and its effects over the generations. About 50 years ago, they caught several wild silver foxes and, through picking only the most docile pups out of each litter, have now produced some very, very tame foxes. Ones that love to cuddle up to humans and be carried around and so on. Then, as an experiment, out of these docile foxes they began to pick only the most aggressive pups out of the litter and then bred those. They quickly bred aggressiveness and distrust of humans right back into them.

What was REALLY interesting was that they then conducted another experiment wherein they placed pups that were born of aggressive parents into a litter of pups bred from docile parents. And every single one of those aggressive pups exhibited the same level of aggressiveness, despite having parents and littermates that loved humans!

Fascinating stuff.

 

[Saint Francis]

Any other takers LOL!? How are psychological traits like gameness or temperament passed on from parents to their litter, like you read in every breeder's advertisements? Most breeders even guarrantee it! Long tail or ear formations, etc. I understand, but how is how a puppy will act passed on genetically? Any late night scientists out there

 

[Lex's Guardian]

You know, there's an interesting study going on in ... Russia (?), I believe, in regards to taming/domestication and its effects over the generations. About 50 years ago, they caught several wild silver foxes and, through picking only the most docile pups out of each litter, have now produced some very, very tame foxes. Ones that love to cuddle up to humans and be carried around and so on. Then, as an experiment, out of these docile foxes they began to pick only the most aggressive pups out of the litter and then bred those. They quickly bred aggressiveness and distrust of humans right back into them.

What was REALLY interesting was that they then conducted another experiment wherein they placed pups that were born of aggressive parents into a litter of pups bred from docile parents. And every single one of those aggressive pups exhibited the same level of aggressiveness, despite having parents and littermates that loved humans!

Fascinating stuff.

So basically (if I'm reading correctly) you're saying these personalities just happen in nature by chance. But if you throw a human in the mix, these temperaments can become controlled & IMO exploited. Not a good thing imo but still interesting enough

 

[Saint Francis]

You know, there's an interesting study going on in ... Russia (?), I believe, in regards to taming/domestication and its effects over the generations. About 50 years ago, they caught several wild silver foxes and, through picking only the most docile pups out of each litter, have now produced some very, very tame foxes. Ones that love to cuddle up to humans and be carried around and so on. Then, as an experiment, out of these docile foxes they began to pick only the most aggressive pups out of the litter and then bred those. They quickly bred aggressiveness and distrust of humans right back into them.

What was REALLY interesting was that they then conducted another experiment wherein they placed pups that were born of aggressive parents into a litter of pups bred from docile parents. And every single one of those aggressive pups exhibited the same level of aggressiveness, despite having parents and littermates that loved humans!

Fascinating stuff.

Very interesting, Caitlin So it does seem that psychological traits can be passed on to offspring. Now, I'd like to know how??? The nature vs. nurtue is always good discussion material.

 

[k8nkane]

So basically (if I'm reading correctly) you're saying these personalities just happen in nature by chance. But if you throw a human in the mix, these temperaments can become controlled & IMO exploited. Not a good thing imo but still interesting enough

I guess, yes. But without this process we wouldn't have dogs, either. It's funny because even though they were selecting for ONLY docility and tameness, they began getting foxes with curly tails vs. straight tails, white masks vs. black masks, etc.

 

[Lex's Guardian]

Very interesting, Caitlin So it does seem that psychological traits can be passed on to offspring. Now, I'd like to know how??? The nature vs. nurtue is always good discussion material.

I wonder if it has to do with noticed high levels of testosterone & other chemical imbalances, along with selective breeding that cause certain temperament traits to happen??? I mean I think it would have to do with certain natural chemicals reacting in the brain & reproductive system causing an aggressive pup vs a submissive one.

I guess, yes. But without this process we wouldn't have dogs, either. It's funny because even though they were selecting for ONLY docility and tameness, they began getting foxes with curly tails vs. straight tails, white masks vs. black masks, etc.

True, I should have stated 'can be exploited' & 'not always a good thing'...

Selective breeding isn't natural in the wild, so those reactions make sense to me as it seems.

 

[k8nkane]

Honestly, unless a major breakthrough comes along in the science of genetics, I don't think we'll know how psychological traits vs. physical traits get passed on for a long time. We have a hard time explaining how physical traits get passed on sometimes, let alone psychological traits. And what if they don't get passed on in the same way? What if we're so focused on psychological traits getting passed on like physical traits (pundit squares and all that) when really they get passed on an entirely different way?

Are there dominant psychological traits? Is it more likely you'll have outgoing, friendly, goofy offspring if you have one parent like that and one parent shy, introverted, and serious?

I know for my pups their personalities are night and day. And yet their parents were both more introverted and serious. So is Kane's goofy personality recessive to that?

 

[Lex's Guardian]

Honestly, unless a major breakthrough comes along in the science of genetics, I don't think we'll know how psychological traits vs. physical traits get passed on for a long time. We have a hard time explaining how physical traits get passed on sometimes, let alone psychological traits. And what if they don't get passed on in the same way? What if we're so focused on psychological traits getting passed on like physical traits (pundit squares and all that) when really they get passed on an entirely different way?

Are there dominant psychological traits? Is it more likely you'll have outgoing, friendly, goofy offspring if you have one parent like that and one parent shy, introverted, and serious?

I know for my pups their personalities are night and day. And yet their parents were both more introverted and serious. So is Kane's goofy personality recessive to that?

I think the way a dog is raised has a lot to do with it's personality just as much as genetics. But in Kane's situation, his parents I'm sure are also well matured, whereas Kane's still in pup mentality mode.

Lex was the same way, now that he's about to hit two he's become more mellow & lounge mode mentality. But he'll get up & go for a run when asked just as well.

 

[Saint Francis]

So basically (if I'm reading correctly) you're saying these personalities just happen in nature by chance. But if you throw a human in the mix, these temperaments can become controlled & IMO exploited. Not a good thing imo but still interesting enough

Hey Candra, I don't mean to turn this into a confusing knot, anymore than these bottles of High Life are already doing to me, but I do think this is provocative enough to get some real good opinions! I could even add to this topic, kind of including what you are saying here, that maybe humans have already controlled our breeds temperaments from day one. I mean it has been suggested that the pit bull, or the what we think the pit bull derived from, was good at hunting, etc., but was it us humans that actually developed their love for aggression towards other dogs? Or were they always aggressive towards other dogs? Would they still be the same pit bull if we left them well enough alone? Could we have gotten the same effects from another dog if we used it for our own exploitation? Who knows, I guess. Whatcha think girl?

 

[k8nkane]

What I mean is that Roxie is still a puppy, and has her goofy puppy moments for sure, but her personality is like her parents. So, how did Kane get his vs. Roxie get hers?

And sorry, I realize this isn't really answering the question, but is only adding to it, lol.

 

[k8nkane]

Ew, high life.... :flush::flush::flush: lol.

I'm of the opinion that personality/temperament is, say, 75% genetics and 25% environment.

 

[Lex's Guardian]

Hey Candra, I don't mean to turn this into a confusing knot, anymore than these bottles of High Life are already doing to me, but I do think this is provocative enough to get some real good opinions! I could even add to this topic, kind of including what you are saying here, that maybe humans have already controlled our breeds temperaments from day one. I mean it has been suggested that the pit bull, or the what we think the pit bull derived from, was good at hunting, etc., but was it us humans that actually developed their love for aggression towards other dogs? Or were they always aggressive towards other dogs? Would they still be the same pit bull if we left them well enough alone? Could we have gotten the same effects from another dog if we used it for our own exploitation? Who knows, I guess. Whatcha think girl?

I think you're onto something & kinda been wondering this as well. You have a very eloquent way of wording things

But I think the same goes for any other breed, being there was an agenda to start with. Great food for thought.

 

[Saint Francis]

Damn you guys type fast!!! Every thread I type seems to barely catch up to the topic, sorry Good points about what would even be considered dominant or recessive Caitlin! What's more is the fact that these same aggressive dogs are usually non-aggressive towards humans, USUALLY Maybe that's where the nurtue part takes over, IDK. I just find it curious how these traits are passed on and no one really questions it, at least the general public.

 

[Saint Francis]

I think you're onto something & kinda been wondering this as well. You have a very eloquent way of wording things

But I think the same goes for any other breed, being there was an agenda to start with. Great food for thought.

Thanks for the compliment Candra! It is food for thought, Lord knows I've had enough food this week already LOL! It just seems like a topic that is accepted yet not fully understood, or maybe we are the only ones who give a rat's patooty

 

[Saint Francis]

Ew, high life.... :flush::flush::flush: lol.

I'm of the opinion that personality/temperament is, say, 75% genetics and 25% environment.

Not a Miller brand lover, eh Caitlin? Well I'll agree with you that at least my beer ends up in the toilet eventually Think of it as recycling LOL! Good conversations with you and Candra tonight, thanks!