Go Pitbull Forums banner
1 - 20 of 61 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
According to the adba the pitbull world is a little mixed up on what is actually a bloodline. Now the general rule is no single dog can create a bloodline. this is because simply put no dog can be bred back to itself. this means that any offsprings dna is not 100% the same as the dog given credit for the bloodline.if it was it would be a clone hence cloning. SO we as lovers of great dogs love to immortalize them by stamping a bloodline with their names.take honeybunch for instance. every time they bred this bitch she threw game dogs.they couldnt breed her wrong. she threw jeep. who according to the adba and "nature" isnt even a bloodline.thats right jeep isnt a bloodline friends-hes 25%carver,25%boudreaux,50% loposay cross.my argument is this-the pitbull world should focus on giving credit to the breeder/breeders who have spent thier lives raising breeding and creating these fine dogs than any one single dog.thats my 2cents. ive got 98 more cents left. anybody reading this?check out www.adbadog.com/p_pdetails.asp?fspid=39
 

·
K9 Pshrynk & Conciliare~
Joined
·
6,362 Posts
Good post, not new news.. however:

Hammonds, Colby, Boudreaux.. all families all strains.. Colby is a step above the others because it is a bloodline as well that most all APBTs are founded in. Boudreaux is close his entire line is built on 1 dog bred to his daughters and neices of dble bred litters this one dog is Blind Billy.. Then he used dogs down from Blind Billy.. Yes Jeep was scatter bred and that Loposay was actually pure colby dogs. Loposay ran two strains. Colby was his most used. When saying Loposay you must underline as to which of his two strains. Jeep dogs have been stacked and inbred to the max and they have bred themselves into a corner for the most part aiming for pure jeep. Your right and wrong.. if its a family of dogs it should be known by the breeders name: Patrick, Hammonds, Clouse, Colby,Boudreaux, chavis .. if it is a strain of dogs it should be named by the family or the dog itself. Just contact the adba and ask them if colby is a family, a strain, and a bloodline.. then ask about the others. Most people use the term line or bloodline when infact they mean strain or substrain. In fact most all strains are sub strains of colby or colby and old family crosses known as OFRN. Everything has colby in the foundation very few did not and eve less do not today. People also use the term blood instead of dna in the manner of speaking of traits and genetics.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
thank you

i have never heard anyone explain the actual breakdown that constitutes a bloodline better than you in your reply to my post. you obviously are a very educated person about the bulldog.i appreciate your input and look forward to seeing more of your threads. :cheers:
 

·
I'm the blue dragon!
Joined
·
4,563 Posts
ok, greenhorn question! what makes the diff between bloodline and strain? i've only been into this stuff since i started here on GP.
 

·
K9 Pshrynk & Conciliare~
Joined
·
6,362 Posts
Im going to explain it like this..

Check out the map; you see there are bloodlines: Apache, Commanche, Shoshone.. and there are strains and substrains(lil family tribes) off of those bloodlines. The Strains belong to the bloodline of original language and geological region which is colored, kept tight this bloodline can be under a different tribal name and using each other to keep the old blood tight.. For instance Shoshone is actually the source of the apache and commanche they broke off and traveled south and are cousin tribes that often traded women for wives. Even though they had different relgious aspects they honored the line inwhich they came, OLD FAMILY, the commanches were slave traders as well and inducted PROVEN tribal members, they game tested even their women. All the southern plains and even many of the Aztec Indians came from Shoshone area EARLY and traveled south. Cheyenne broke off early from a bloodline and formed their own strain that became their own bloodline or family just like the Apaches, and Commanches.. all those lil tribes and offshoots are the strains and substrains from them. Boudreaux is near its own bloodline of dogs much like colby because its untouched and old blood taken back into each other and bred together over a millinea. But now everyone is crossing boudreaux out so the pedigrees tend to scatter when they finally get to be where they need to be to be a bloodline. Even though most would consider Boudreaux a bloodline already. I do not because its to easily varied when outcrossed. You outcross to the bloodline of Colby or OFRN (pick a strain) and you will see obviously that your dogs are half colby, or OFRN. The blood is older and also the source of other strains and substrains such as boudreaux built on blind billy an Old family dog with a lil bit of colby. So if you take Colby or OFRN to it; it will dominate ..
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [232617] :: GUK'S HOBO
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [103556] :: CH. WHITEHEAD
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [55126] :: MBKS & SHAOLIN'S WHITEHEAD
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [11116] :: GAMBLER'S VIRGIL (5XW)

See how the COLBY genetics dominate in all crosses? OFRN does the same thing crossed into. Because they are the foundation source the bloodline.

There is the Colby bloodline and the OFRN bloodline... everything out there is dominated by these genetics crossed back into just for that reason. SO they are strains and substrains :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Its NOT a greenhorn question buddy. To me the term bloodline is open to debate-a HUGE debate. the term has been misconstrued over the years and the actual definition has been changed and obscured.this makes finding the real definition of bloodline confusing at best. to me bloodline refers to a certain type of characteristics that were bred for by breeders of bulldogs.
Now that definition would allow almost any breeder to claim they have a new bloodline.
And according to the adba they dont.
IF you wanted to define it in a unobscurable and definitive definition(everyone is gonna be pissed at me) the great American pitbull terrier is the "bloodline". your dog is of american pitbull terrier blood. every other dogs name on your registry papers contributed to your dogs make up-which were all pitbull. there is no apbt so distinguished to me that would classify as a new blood type of apbt. to some there were two original bloodlines colby and old family red nose- all else were breed from those bloodlines. the strain are the dogs with the certain characteristics they were purposely breed for(mouth,level of aggresion,weight,gameness,etc) by breeders whose pups now consistantly show these traits.but are not new bloodlines.if i am wrong can someone please tell me how many generations it takes to actually create a bloodline?
 

·
K9 Pshrynk & Conciliare~
Joined
·
6,362 Posts
Good post.. in general speaking of bulldog breeds the APBT is the bloodline of bulldog as is the AST and so on.. HOWEVER... Colby and OFRN are the only two BLOODLINES in the APBT they are almost their own dog. They are the father and mother to ALL strains and sub strains. Because both are in both AST and APBT and BOTH are just as strong genetically in those strains as any other strain or substrain when crosssed into or back into. Hell there are some whopper dog colby crosses and you can sure tell there is colby. OFRN is the same way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
firehazard u are one badass bulldog person i am so glad you can explain this like you do. i appreciate your time in trying to help us understand. thank you
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,206 Posts
A strain is defined as "a variety within a variety" according to Stratton. Since I am particular to the OFRN, I came across another Strattonism... the Old Family was a strain of the old Irish dogs, the Old Family Reds were a strain of the Old Family, and the OFRN a strain of the Old Family Reds. There does seem to be a play on words in the bulldog world because strain, line, segment, and breeder's name (Wallace "strain", for example) all seem to be used interchangeably just to make the waters even more murky.
 

·
I'm the blue dragon!
Joined
·
4,563 Posts
Murky waters is right! I'm startin to understand I think. Let me try this then.... so what most refer to as bloodline is really what? Substrain? Jeep for example would be a substrain of Loposay?

I want to understand but its a lot to wrap my head around. But thank u all for the knowledge so far! And see Jman, we are a friendly forum :)
 

·
K9 Pshrynk & Conciliare~
Joined
·
6,362 Posts
A strain is defined as "a variety within a variety" according to Stratton. Since I am particular to the OFRN, I came across another Strattonism... the Old Family was a strain of the old Irish dogs, the Old Family Reds were a strain of the Old Family, and the OFRN a strain of the Old Family Reds. There does seem to be a play on words in the bulldog world because strain, line, segment, and breeder's name (Wallace "strain", for example) all seem to be used interchangeably just to make the waters even more murky.
murky waters from slang terms and euphamnisms become common clature and what most see as facts. Irish dogs were small and wirey them old lightener and hemphill dogs were large red houndish type bulldogs with game and wind like no other, most had red noses some did not some were even brindled red red. Follow the oldest dogs back and those Lightener dogs predate the Irish flood. ... This lil tid bit also coensides with that Catahoula dogs were here before most of the english immigrants, because those old spanish bulldogs crossed with indian pirahs made the catahoula. There were Spanish in Florida and the keys before the English claimed pre US soil. So with that comes the common knowledge that they all carried bulldogs for fighting and for fighting(waring) :D The spanish bulldogs were the now extinct bloodline of DDB. Those OLD FAMILY dogs are kept record and show on pedigree back dang near to the civil war. I do remember that part in strattons book but I think there was or is a catch information wise and he mentions this or maybe its in one of the colby books.. Hmmm gotta look that one up but it seems like info I already processed and the OF coming from Ireland is misunderstanding from slang terms. I do like to think that Old Family is Irish but the facts to support that don't add up. Follow the irish dogs they get smaller and more intense game wise lil balls of fire, the lightener dogs and cochoran and others were quite large and red on red quite often if not all the time. They pulled in the irish dogs off the boat just like colby did and thats the difference. Colby was Irish/English .. Lightener was irish/spanish.. Corcoran was irish and heavy on paddy just like colby and the crosses Ligthener used were colbys tight paddy dogs. When you see colby into them its because they had the same irish stock, they didnt want that english stock but wanted to bring the size down some and maintain the fire its obvious in their breeding on pedigree. Ligthener gave em all up for smaller and less game and english dogs. Ironic aint it? He had the oldest blood in the world next with colby a close 2nd. The older those dogs the more dogue they look as far as Old Family even the old bulldog pictures of the 1890s look much like the bulldogue pictured in the sketch below.

They brought some dogs with them like maybe one or two then bred them to the bulldogs in that country side that were there, then time goes by Lightener and Colby rub shoulders and he pulls in more irish blood which is why the OF dogs werent over weight and barrelled more agile and stream lined even for big dogs. BUT as Lightener stated he couldnt bring the size down and wanted away from big red dogs. Kept PURE and into itself they never were able to bring the size down, more colby blood gets introduced and the size comes down. Wilder and Hemphill all had large dogs. Colby favored the Irish dogs over the english dogs and used more Irish than english the proof is also in the pedigrees. People like to say colby is all english but really its mostly irish. Follow your own pedigrees all the way back ;) you'll see what Im talking about. If irish dogs were known for being small and gamey there is no reasons that Lightener having the oldest old family dogs couldnt have had small dogs but he said they were to large meaning they didnt breed down. He was as good as breeder as Colby so there is a lot in a statement like that from him.


Compare to Original Bulldog ... who came from ^^^ the fighting dog of gaul the original extinct bloodline or foundation strain of DDB.
 

·
Diggin' Deep
Joined
·
5,194 Posts
I like the way you write FH...I can understand what you are saying! :p it's a lot to take in and digest but it is truly fascinating!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,206 Posts
I ain't arguing with you Stan, just so we're straight on that:) Scratch? Stan vs. Stratton? Stratton can't spar LOL. On page 225 of The Best of the APBT Stratton answers a question about Old Family Reds and OFRN. He says the Old Family Reds were a segment(strain?) of the Old Family (strain of old Irish dogs, generally small, very highly bred, and renowned for their gameness...the Gashouse dogs stemmed in the main from this family). He then concludes by saying that the OFRN was a segment of the Old Family Red strain. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding his conclusions or it has been overly simplified on paper, IDK. Stratton does mention the fact that Lightner (and family) had imported from Ireland Pre Civil War, utilizing the Old Family Reds for his OFRN strain BUT eventually did give up on that strain due to size and nose color. Lightner then became involved in with a second strain of dogs.
Stratton said that this small, variable colored strain of Lightner " is one of the great mysteries of Pit Bull history" because no one knew where he got this strain from LOL. Confusing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Idk -i truely dont. I have not read the book,but i will. What doesnt make sense is that the man would give up on a dog because of its nose color,especially if they were winning. Game not the"look"
mentality created our breed. If not we would of had 125lb "blue pitbulls" alot sooner.?????????
 

·
K9 Pshrynk & Conciliare~
Joined
·
6,362 Posts
man, I knew you werent arguing, I just figure I better not leave any gaps.. In no way am I aruging stratton rather take what he says and put it in the pot with the other authors of authority on the breed. yes sir and I checked and confirmed. I will look through my litterature for other mentions of lightener most all confirm he had stock that was from the civil war times supposedly and no one knew where they came from. .. but yeah so if old family is irish and small then why were the wilder hemphill and lightener dogs so big? Yes there is other litterature on Lightener and him switching stock. His own blood Searcys Jeff beat Colorados IMPII his own english/irish blood that he favored over the big dogs after how long? He always favored the lil dogs thats why he kept crossing into the irish but his OLD Family just didnt breed down. Then he just switchfoot, and took the heavy if not all paddy dogs with english outs.. Hmmm?? shoulda stuck with his old blood because it didnt pan out like the big red dogs.

Old family reds have always been heavily irish influenced the oldest dogs in the ped that predate colby are not irish .. I'd still like to think that however and for the most part it is all irish... its just the oldest dogs are most likely dogues and Old Family is the reference to Spain. Like any good dog man he kept his formula secret and the Old Family slang term was easily played with.. all we have to do is compare the dogs..

Lightener, hemphill, Wilder all were very dogue like except the snipey head however they throw/threw brick like bulldog heads too. Houndish in look they were and are large and rangy. There is another large rangy strain, the hammonds stuff that is built on rufus and alligator, because he had the body of the old family dogs. look at alligators bottom half on a 7 shes all old family /OFR and breeding alligator back to her to get rufus well that just doubled up on that and locked it into the dna format for that family of dogs as most all of them have the hammonds family look. Get em red with a red nose and they look almost to the T of some wilder hemphill stock..

Paddy and Paddy stock was the heavily used irish dogs its what colby was built on and what black jack, braddock, fighting peter,.. .. all of them were paddy stacked dogs. Fergusons Centipede was paddy and colby influenced Lightener and in some of that Lightener you see it go back to a couple of spanish dogs with no further ped; while all the other dogs go back to paddy.. This means he HAD old dogs.. there genetics were strong and carried a mutation or coding that the other strains just didn't have. It may take a day or two or three, take your time and disect them peds, and see how many actually go back to paddy bred dogs (ALOT) .. Some go back to SBT that were proven and scatterbred some go back to the irish imports not of colby, farmers turk for example has dogs that were imported in the mid 1800s in his 4 and 5 gen on his pedigree and other dogs go back further to dogues. The first scotts/irish came in the 1740/50s which is in bulldog hsitory as well as history and the 1850s came the irish surge.For instance Delihant is a name that goes back to the old country and is associate with clergy. The English surged at this time too. Its easy to remember the irish dogs were small and mighty they were able to be carried under coats into the mines, factories, and fields.. ... .. Lightener having the purest quitting them cause they're to large... Then look at whats at hand. besides his stock not many had dogs that didnt have colby or predate it if any. Corvino stuff has lightener but is heavily influenced by colby dogs. Look at Lightener Joker, this is a dog that was old for his time.

I know the pieces fit; I watched them fall away~
 

·
OCD Bullyologist
Joined
·
8,663 Posts
I'll find the article Amy Greenwood Burford wrote for ADBA regarding bloodlines as well as Sadie's commentary and thoughts about it. Great insight. I shall do it tomorrow though. Going to bed.
 
1 - 20 of 61 Posts
Top