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man, I knew you werent arguing, I just figure I better not leave any gaps.. In no way am I aruging stratton rather take what he says and put it in the pot with the other authors of authority on the breed. yes sir and I checked and confirmed. I will look through my litterature for other mentions of lightener most all confirm he had stock that was from the civil war times supposedly and no one knew where they came from. .. but yeah so if old family is irish and small then why were the wilder hemphill and lightener dogs so big? Yes there is other litterature on Lightener and him switching stock. His own blood Searcys Jeff beat Colorados IMPII his own english/irish blood that he favored over the big dogs after how long? He always favored the lil dogs thats why he kept crossing into the irish but his OLD Family just didnt breed down. Then he just switchfoot, and took the heavy if not all paddy dogs with english outs.. Hmmm?? shoulda stuck with his old blood because it didnt pan out like the big red dogs.

Old family reds have always been heavily irish influenced the oldest dogs in the ped that predate colby are not irish .. I'd still like to think that however and for the most part it is all irish... its just the oldest dogs are most likely dogues and Old Family is the reference to Spain. Like any good dog man he kept his formula secret and the Old Family slang term was easily played with.. all we have to do is compare the dogs..

Lightener, hemphill, Lightener all were very dogue like except the snipey head however they throw/threw brick like bulldog heads too. Houndish in look they were and are large and rangy. There is another large rangy strain, the hammonds stuff that is built on rufus and alligator, because he had the body of the old family dogs. look at alligators bottom half on a 7 shes all old family /OFR and breeding alligator back to her to get rufus well that just doubled up on that and locked it into the dna format for that family of dogs as most all of them have the hammonds family look. Get em red with a red nose and they look almost to the T of some wilder hemphill stock..

Paddy and Paddy stock was the heavily used irish dogs its what colby was built on and what black jack, braddock, fighting peter,.. .. all of them were paddy stacked dogs. Fergusons Centipede was paddy and colby influenced Lightener and in some of that Lightener you see it go back to a couple of spanish dogs with no further ped; while all the other dogs go back to paddy.. This means he HAD old dogs.. there genetics were strong and carried a mutation or coding that the other strains just didn't have. It may take a day or two or three, take your time and disect them peds, and see how many actually go back to paddy bred dogs (ALOT) .. Some go back to SBT that were proven and scatterbred some go back to the irish imports not of colby, farmers turk for example has dogs that were imported in the mid 1800s in his 4 and 5 gen on his pedigree and other dogs go back further to dogues. The first scotts/irish came in the 1740/50s which is in bulldog hsitory as well as history and the 1850s came the irish surge.For instance Delihant is a name that goes back to the old country and is associate with clergy. The English surged at this time too. Its easy to remember the irish dogs were small and mighty they were able to be carried under coats into the mines, factories, and fields.. ... .. Lightener having the purest quitting them cause they're to large... Then look at whats at hand. besides his stock not many had dogs that didnt have colby or predate it if any. Corvino stuff has lightener but is heavily influenced by colby dogs. Look at Lightener Joker, this is a dog that was old for his time.

I know the pieces fit; I watched them fall away~
I have always wondered why the OFRN "ran big". Can size be thought of in "trait" terms? I realize that what determines a bulldog's size involves many factors, but can size be "dominantly" or "recessively" thought of? With all the tight breeding I can't help but ask how this size factored in to it all genetically. IDK, I'm certainly not a geneticist...I just play one on TV:)
 

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I have always wondered why the OFRN "ran big". Can size be thought of in "trait" terms? I realize that what determines a bulldog's size involves many factors, but can size be "dominantly" or "recessively" thought of? With all the tight breeding I can't help but ask how this size factored in to it all genetically. IDK, I'm certainly not a geneticist...I just play one on TV:)
:rofl: hahaha.. thats funny.. .. to answer your question.. YES.. I just brought hamomnds/heinzl dog down to 30lbs by outcrossing to the right piece; because they both shared a snooty catalyst through spike ( a smaller dog) it was fused in to the hammonds side and was in Hoagie in 1/4 shot.

I've bred my own dogs seperate to get them big and small; I've bred whopper down to 35lbs with 50% whopper in the ped or genetic make up. I had to answer all those questions for myself. Just like any other trait bone density and size are inherited and part of the gentic code.

As far as Sadie and Greenwood; well Greenwood is who gave me my first round of education back in 2001, later Tants, then Davis and later Mr Hammonds, with old men of Hicks bred dogs and OFRN dogs inbetween. Heinzl is who I follow along with Colby; and have gotten into disagreements with Sadie because she doesnt adhere to the Heinzl format rather she adheres to the action guy only format. For work only the 4gen is what matters for family and breeding and locking in genetics you have to look at the full 7. There are 256 ancestors each with traits from 256 ancestors thats 20,000 + ancestors that ONE dog has DNA make up for. Thats genetic TRUTH you cant beat it. So as a breeder for a family of dogs there really is no better format or guideline other than by Heinzl or Colby. Heinzl used his own blood he handed down to tudors and he used Colby exclusively and he had some old lightener stock as well. Its interesting to think that Colby used Heinzl only as outcross rarely ever do you see colby with anything other than colby that he handed down except when crossed into heinzl bred dogs. Howard Heinzl was revered by all and even those action guys today who only focus on 4gen cannot deny honestly that Heinzl was the best dog breeder to be seen with the American Pit Bull Terrier. No one got it like him nor could produce em like him. All the dog men we look up to looked up to him or his dogs, everything is in the pedigrees as well as written history.
 

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IF adba consideres HEINZL a bloodline they would also consider BOUDREAUX a bloodline and CHAVIS as well.. I do not. HEINZL is basically colby they go hand and hand. BOUDREAUX and CHAVIS can be completely dominated by crossing into Colby or OFRN unlike Heinzl. Who has his name behind many if not most of the dogs today.

Im not the ADBA nor am I greenwood.. I look at it in the eyes of genetic dominance and diverstiy. Heinzl had the most going as far as breeder goes but he used JP's dogs exclusively. He may have been a better breeder howver Colby still had great influence on his dogs complete genetic makeup.

COLBY and OFRN are the two bloodlines of the APBT .. JMO everything falls under one or the other or both.. everything is dominated by one or the other. When bred tight redboy and jeep turn red on red, most of them buck dogs red on red.. Thats strong OFRN DNA being pushed to the surface asa dominant trait. Redboy bred right could be an outcross for OFRN as could Colby for that matter. Colby is the only bloodline that can be used as an outcross for all strains and substrains of the APBT. IF there are any pure Heinzl dogs left, they too can be used as a perfect outcross for any strain or substrain... Heinzl simply lacked the family to hand his work down to who also would understand and continue his work as he did. COLBY is a family bloodline since late 19th century, family continues JPs hard work...

if you wanna be a breeder above the rest; follow Heinzl and Colby follow their peidgrees their words and pay attention to detail in your own stock, dont be in a hurry to sell keep em til 6months or so and make sure you dont have to cull. When inbreeding and tight linebreeding or direct outcross of two inbred strains; some dogs need to be culled, gonna have some goof ups for sure until you single out and cull all those genes and traits from your strain to begin forming a line. You have to cull ... those who don't are not honest to breeders ethics. Follow Heinzl you will not make a mistake unles you fumble the ball.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
so due to my lack of pedigree history,which i have no problem admitting,IF you got your hands on a heinzl and put it into a colby dog what would be the outcome of the pups?- in your opinion.I understand you said heinzl is pretty much colby but got confused when you said the adba considered heinzl a bloodline. I apologize if this is getting redundant for you or if this is a stoopid ass question. but my knowledge about the breed comes from ownership(having had dozens) my grandfather and family. we have never been breeders per say of the science of the art- just good dogs to good dogs. also if you have time could you give me the exact names of some of the books you have mentioned? stratton etc i greatly appreciate your help firehazard,
 

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This is the American Pit Bull Terrier
The American Pit Bull Terrier
The World of the American Pit Bull Terrier
The Truth about the American Pit Bull Terrier....all Richard Stratton, I like the second and third books mentioned best.
Dogs of Velvet and Steel...Bob Stevens
Fighting for Life...Frank Rocca
Colby's Book of the APBT
The Complete Gamedog...Ed Faron
There are more of course.
 

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IF adba consideres HEINZL a bloodline they would also consider BOUDREAUX a bloodline and CHAVIS as well.. I do not. HEINZL is basically colby they go hand and hand. BOUDREAUX and CHAVIS can be completely dominated by crossing into Colby or OFRN unlike Heinzl. Who has his name behind many if not most of the dogs today.

Im not the ADBA nor am I greenwood.. I look at it in the eyes of genetic dominance and diverstiy. Heinzl had the most going as far as breeder goes but he used JP's dogs exclusively. He may have been a better breeder howver Colby still had great influence on his dogs complete genetic makeup.

COLBY and OFRN are the two bloodlines of the APBT .. JMO everything falls under one or the other or both.. everything is dominated by one or the other. When bred tight redboy and jeep turn red on red, most of them buck dogs red on red.. Thats strong OFRN DNA being pushed to the surface asa dominant trait. Redboy bred right could be an outcross for OFRN as could Colby for that matter. Colby is the only bloodline that can be used as an outcross for all strains and substrains of the APBT. IF there are any pure Heinzl dogs left, they too can be used as a perfect outcross for any strain or substrain... Heinzl simply lacked the family to hand his work down to who also would understand and continue his work as he did. COLBY is a family bloodline since late 19th century, family continues JPs hard work...

if you wanna be a breeder above the rest; follow Heinzl and Colby follow their peidgrees their words and pay attention to detail in your own stock, dont be in a hurry to sell keep em til 6months or so and make sure you dont have to cull. When inbreeding and tight linebreeding or direct outcross of two inbred strains; some dogs need to be culled, gonna have some goof ups for sure until you single out and cull all those genes and traits from your strain to begin forming a line. You have to cull ... those who don't are not honest to breeders ethics. Follow Heinzl you will not make a mistake unles you fumble the ball.
Lot of good breeders, some were in a league of their own. The Reverend Howard Heinzl fits the bill. I would throw in a few others, but that is where personal bias takes over LOL. You know I'm a Corvino fan;)
 

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Dogs like this:

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1799] :: HEINZL'S ******
foundation of heinzl dogs today...

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [54206] :: MBKS COLBY MAGNUM

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [10648] :: CEDARBROOKS MADELINE

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [28107] :: HEINZL'S CHIEF

... just an example of a pure colby dog... and a pure heinzl dog.. not much different really.. and the cross.. Tudors was given Dibo by Heinzl and Heinzl had some paddy blood outside of colby which is why it always clicked so well just like the previous Lightener Colby crosses and why Colby and Tudors crosses always clicked. Heinzl diffrent from colby in that aspect and didn't cull red noses from his program, and a couple of other minor details surrounding pedigree ( dna ) knowledge. Heinzl and Colby dogs have always clicked.. .. its the paddy dna they both harbor.. Colby is just the more pure (untainted) foundation strain to the rest of the dogs in America today. (rest meaning not all) Everything has paddy in it some way or another and there were dogs built on Paddy and strains.. None like colby that become a bloodline and foundation to a majority of the stock out there. Armitage, Clark, .. Fly of Panama.. all pure colby.. So even the corvino stock has ample colby dna in there.

Heinzl is considered a bloodline in the ADBA by way of the article you posted. Im OCD and soak in facts when Im reading like robotic anaylsis.. I read it again to break it down and take in each emotional and rational thought by each line puncuation, by puncuation.. . Then I read it a third time to really understand what I am already wise to and then it becomes knowing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
ok thanks for your help bud. im looking forward to future conversations. yer an all right dog man. take care.and ty to saint francis for his input and the list of books:cheers:
 

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Lot of good breeders, some were in a league of their own. The Reverend Howard Heinzl fits the bill. I would throw in a few others, but that is where personal bias takes over LOL. You know I'm a Corvino fan;)
yup which was the source of Heinzls first stock .. then he went colby.. Im sure it was JPs quality of character in himself and his dogs. Heinzl didn't like action guys nore did he like most dogmen. He thought they were full of themselves and a lil to much for not knowing all that they thought they knew.. Corvino was in a league of his own as well.. producing a FAMILY of constant, strong, dna... that shows in all it touched. Not much corvino untouched today, most of it has been spliced with colby somehow weather through loposay or heinzl blood through morgan.. It is in a class of its own. Thus OFRN being bloodline of dogs and COLBY .. Corvino would contribute to the OFRN of course.

All dogs the best of breeders used a dog or dogs from those men and done the best they could. Boudreaux up to eli and eli II and bullyson are inbred linebred all down from corvino mainly. This is why anything from OFRN or COLBY throws dominant. Its the pre cursor.. the foundation blocks .. Just like paddy was for lightener, colby, feeley, heinzl, etc.. etc.. Thats what makes colby so special really. THEY ALL gathered paddy blood even the corvino HOWEVER COLBY is a complete sub strain, strain, and bloodline with more untainted paddy and irish % than any other strain. Paddy founded colby , paddy founded what colby didn't, colby purified paddy tightened it up and built a bloodline from it, as did others its just with colby you can follow it in cleanly back to the boat. Everyone else outcrossed alot.. COLBY and OFRN are the only two bloodlines JMO but you take any well bred tight line to any well bred honest colby dog or OFRN dog and well.. you'll see.
 

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This is the American Pit Bull Terrier
The American Pit Bull Terrier
The World of the American Pit Bull Terrier
The Truth about the American Pit Bull Terrier....all Richard Stratton, I like the second and third books mentioned best.
Dogs of Velvet and Steel...Bob Stevens
Fighting for Life...Frank Rocca
Colby's Book of the APBT
The Complete Gamedog...Ed Faron
There are more of course.
this is a good lot to start with and get a STRONG common sense factor for understanding the dog. GREAT POST!
 

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The Old Family Red Nose Strain did not need the Colby dogs to be where they are today.
And again, OFRN is NOT a bloodline. It is simply a STRAIN of the American (pit) Bull Terrier.
The bloodlines within the OFRN strain are from the breeders or dogs they are based on.
Lou himself told me before he passed that his family had nothing to do with the OFRN dogs,
and his father never once spoke of them in his lifetime.
Even more, if a red dog popped up, they culled it. They did not like the red dogs.
OFRN dogs also beat many Colby dogs in the []. This was when only the best were allowed life. They had to prove they deserved the title of ApBT!!
They were a small strain, not overproduced by pocket breeders as today.

The dog game had been going on long before Colby came around. He was simply the first to make them public.
A lot of dogmen disliked him for that.

But one thing is true: the legendary game Colby dog is just that today: Legend. The past. Today they are more in par with the AST. Bred for show.
The OFRN today have improved and continue to improve. Without the Colby dogs.

Now for the "Corvino" dogs, those with interest should keep their eyes open this year for a book.
"An Interview with Carmen Corvino." (Joe's Grandson).
I recently had dinner with men who grew up with him.
This book is to for once and for all separate the facts from the BS going around.
Bob Wallace himself considered Joe Corvino the greatest breeder of his generation. Over John P. Colby.
How many of you saw more matches than Bob Wallace did in his days?

This is not to diminish the accomplishments of Colby...
John was a great breeder, no denying that. But his family never preserved the same caliber of dogs their father and grandfather did.
"History" cannot make a dog better, by a name.

As Joe Corvino said: "The test of a family is time."
 

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The Old Family Red Nose Strain did not need the Colby dogs to be where they are today.
And again, OFRN is NOT a bloodline. It is simply a STRAIN of the American (pit) Bull Terrier.
The bloodlines within the OFRN strain are from the breeders or dogs they are based on.
Lou himself told me before he passed that his family had nothing to do with the OFRN dogs,
and his father never once spoke of them in his lifetime.
Even more, if a red dog popped up, they culled it. They did not like the red dogs.
OFRN dogs also beat many Colby dogs in the []. This was when only the best were allowed life. They had to prove they deserved the title of ApBT!!
They were a small strain, not overproduced by pocket breeders as today.

The dog game had been going on long before Colby came around. He was simply the first to make them public.
A lot of dogmen disliked him for that.

But one thing is true: the legendary game Colby dog is just that today: Legend. The past. Today they are more in par with the AST. Bred for show.
The OFRN today have improved and continue to improve. Without the Colby dogs.

Now for the "Corvino" dogs, those with interest should keep their eyes open this year for a book.
"An Interview with Carmen Corvino." (Joe's Grandson).
I recently had dinner with men who grew up with him.
This book is to for once and for all separate the facts from the BS going around.
Bob Wallace himself considered Joe Corvino the greatest breeder of his generation. Over John P. Colby.
How many of you saw more matches than Bob Wallace did in his days?

This is not to diminish the accomplishments of Colby...
John was a great breeder, no denying that. But his family never preserved the same caliber of dogs their father and grandfather did.
"History" cannot make a dog better, by a name.

As Joe Corvino said: "The test of a family is time."
That would be me LOL!!! Wanted to see Corvino this summer, but as you know he couldn't make it to the show. Keep me posted on the book, I'm sure you will G! Good seeing you back on here;)
 

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... ... Look at the pedigrees themselves and put your own emotional constitutions to the side. Im partial to the OFRN as my favorite.. and YES the OFRN as a whole is a bloodline. So is COLBY and ALL OTHER dogs come from those dogs and can be highly altered by going back into those dogs or lock in traits, some over looked and lost.

If I did say need it was from pedigree research and being a breeder myself. .. the test of family is indeed time.. Whos still around besides COLBY in that purity? All action guys who take a chance and outcross with pure colby produce all aces and dimes: from mayfield -JRBBolioTmb and all the others done right. >> IM SAYING ALL THE OFRN PEOPLE are OVERLOOKING KEY elements that show they used heavy paddy and irish dogs .. which is almost exclusively what Colby used as well as the English Pilot dogs The paddy was dominant. The paddy is also where those old guys pulled in the Colby bred dogs because of their pedigree.. Follow a colby ped back is mostly paddy and kept in one family bred by JPs standards. Ol Bob Wallace is another one of those types that is a league above the rest.... Unlike colby they didn't have family to keep it in tact properly or gave up on it. Corvino may have said wallace was the greatest breeder of all time, well Hemphills broke jaw sire to Searcy Jeff was near pure colby on top even the lightener were colby dogs, and all colby on bottom. ..<<Lightener gets the credit for this dog and when you look at HEmphills Broke jaw you see its all Colby and what isnt is paddy stock. So again.. opinion of DID NOT NEED is moot, as we can see the building blocks clearly.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=1117
 

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ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1216] :: KING COTTON

built on Wallaces Searcy Jeff and had that Old lightner gyp in there with another 1/4 shot sired by Centipede who Colby paddy and paddy dogs to a shippley/corcorans gas house/paddy stock.. again they used the best of the paddy stock they could find if not through Tudors dogs it was Colby himself in a couple of Lighteners crosses and of course heinzl had a good batch of corvino dogs. .. the reason all those clicked with colby on the cross is because REALLY TECHNICALLY ..

Lloyds PADDY/Sweeneys GASHOUSE and Lloyds PILOT/GAS HOUSE are the FOUNDATION of almost every strain of dog rooted in the USA with the name APBT .. All the OFR go back to Paddy or other irish dogs right off the boat. Lightener had some old dogs that were around before all the irish dogs and no one knew where they came from .. HMMM NO ONE KNEW and everyone had irish dogs and paddy dogs and english dogs so to say that all his croanies would say NO ONE KNEW where he got his dogs, that says a lot in very few words. Lightener quit his dogs cause they were to big and so he went to the straight paddy dogs. Hmmm.. He had paddy blood all in the red dogs he had so why the jump ship? Because of that old blood he had infused with those dogs. The blood no one knew where it came from. Big bulldogues.
 

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... ... Look at the pedigrees themselves and put your own emotional constitutions to the side. Im partial to the OFRN as my favorite.. and YES the OFRN as a whole is a bloodline. So is COLBY and ALL OTHER dogs come from those dogs and can be highly altered by going back into those dogs or lock in traits, some over looked and lost.

If I did say need it was from pedigree research and being a breeder myself. .. the test of family is indeed time.. Whos still around besides COLBY in that purity? All action guys who take a chance and outcross with pure colby produce all aces and dimes: from mayfield -JRBBolioTmb and all the others done right. >> IM SAYING ALL THE OFRN PEOPLE are OVERLOOKING KEY elements that show they used heavy paddy and irish dogs .. which is almost exclusively what Colby used as well as the English Pilot dogs The paddy was dominant. The paddy is also where those old guys pulled in the Colby bred dogs because of their pedigree.. Follow a colby ped back is mostly paddy and kept in one family bred by JPs standards. Ol Bob Wallace is another one of those types that is a league above the rest.... Unlike colby they didn't have family to keep it in tact properly or gave up on it. Corvino may have said wallace was the greatest breeder of all time, well Hemphills broke jaw sire to Searcy Jeff was near pure colby on top even the lightener were colby dogs, and all colby on bottom. ..<<Lightener gets the credit for this dog and when you look at HEmphills Broke jaw you see its all Colby and what isnt is paddy stock. So again.. opinion of DID NOT NEED is moot, as we can see the building blocks clearly.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1117] :: HEMPHILL'S BROKE JAW
"Strike that, now reverse it" (Willy Wonka for ya)....Wallace said Corvino was the greatest breeder of the day, not the other way around. Sorry Stan, couldn't let that go LOL!
 

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... ... Look at the pedigrees themselves and put your own emotional constitutions to the side. Im partial to the OFRN as my favorite.. and YES the OFRN as a whole is a bloodline.
OFRN is a STRAIN of American (pit) Bull Terrier. There are bloodlines within the strain.
As a member of the Old Family Red Nose Registry, this is the first thing people need to learn when they come on board:
OFRN IS NOT A BLOODLINE!!
 

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Bloodline genetically speaking founded strains and substrains .. bloodline is breed of dog. Blood is the old world breeders term for DNA. There are many bloodlines (breeds) of dog. and Those breeds/bloodlines have various strains and substrains from it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
perfect definition for the word bloodline firehazard.this has turned out to be one of the best and informitive discussions ive had on this subject. and i think a few more people other than myself are learning something-lol:goodpost:
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 · (Edited)
so my next question acording to the definition is (unless i misu nderstood) if ofrn and colby are both bloodlines(which is breed of dog) does that mean there are 2 different BREEDS of what is now called the apbt? so if i had 1 of these old time ofrn and a colby next to me are they both apbts? seriously confused and just not getting it.or are you saying that the ofrn and colby is now the" modern"apbt???????feel free not to answer if ya give up on me LOL. but how im understanding it that makes sense is that the apbt is the bloodline(breed) colby and ofrn are strains and all else are sub-strains????
 
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