Go Pitbull Forums banner
41 - 60 of 61 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,206 Posts
While I always respect your knowledge/opinions Stan, I have to side with Goemon on the strain vs. bloodline discussion. It is what I have read and been told by a top OFRN authority/breeder. But hey, what would the world be like if everyone agreed?! LOL This whole thread has been food for thought for those with hungry minds, kudos:)
 

·
K9 Pshrynk & Conciliare~
Joined
·
6,362 Posts
While I always respect your knowledge/opinions Stan, I have to side with Goemon on the strain vs. bloodline discussion. It is what I have read and been told by a top OFRN authority/breeder. But hey, what would the world be like if everyone agreed?! LOL This whole thread has been food for thought for those with hungry minds, kudos:)
:cheers: :goodpost: I certainly agree; and was founded in that school of thought. I kinda always keep my mind free and what I stumbled upon was misunderstanding or multiple understandings of the word "bloodline" itself from the beginning depending on region and culture. All Im saying is that IMO it is a reverse understanding of the word. In most all cases most still say strain by layman terms because of that inwhich I mentioned: use and understanding of the word. Really in biological speaking its: offspring, decendants, species.. and whats funny is that until late 90s into 2000 there was no real way to distinguish between species and all wolves and domestic dogs were under canis lupus.
"....Breeds of dogs can not be distinguished from each other by any known anatomical attribute or even biochemical genetic test, including DNA fingerprinting. Since a given breed of dog can not be defined by any scientific means currently known, our contention is that it is not possible to write any ordinance or law that would single them out for special treatment since they cannot be so defined in a legal sense. "Recently I attended a canine genetics workshop at Texas A & M University in which it was further emphasized that there is no biochemical genetic test that can even distinguish wolves from domestic dogs. "....I would taxonomically identify all wolves, wolf hybrids and domestic dogs as the species Canis lupus. Technically, the domestic dog and wolf hybrids should be designated as the sub-species "domesticus". I. Lehr Brisbin, Jr., Research Professor, Savannah River Ecology Laboratory, The University of Georgia. Letter, 30, Jan. 1990
The DNA evidence, however, shows that they are all derived from the wolf. DNA from all dogs is over 99% identical to that of a wolf, while the wolf and coyote DNAs, for example, are over 4% different from each other. This means, surprisingly, that all of the diversity of dog types in the world today came from a single source, the wolfAbout the author. Steven Potter, PhD, is a Professor of Pediatrics, in the Division of Developmental Biology, at Children's Hospital Medical Center in Cincinnati. He has authored Designer Genes: A New Era in the Evolution of Man, published by Random House. He has also written over one hundred science papers and co-authored the third edition of the medical school textbook, Larsen's Human Embryology.
Designer Genes: A New Era in the Evolution of Man: Steven Potter: 9781400069057: Amazon.com: Books
Which is why I got out of the wolf rescue type stuff back when I caught bulldog fever (01') while also vet tech at the SPCA. For two reasons: politics is bull:poop: and because I found through breeding and obtained bred wolfdogs and readings on the wolf that: there is no wolf hybrid that it is a wolfdog and that everything disappears back into the wolf. Even up here I seen a blue wolfdog from the result of a blue APBT X a wolfdog, the other look like spikey wire haired dogs. Because of that and my new understanding of Colby, Heinzl, and them other ace family breeders work; I know that just how everything disappears or is drastically altered by the wolf, it is the same with different bloodlines of dog and their strains and sub strains. Well Stratton says before getting into bulldogs or while a student of, one should study the wolf and its entirety. Thats my foot hold. Even though in general talk I'll know what people mean and wont disect the conversation for technicalities: however when asked what makes a bloodline 101 .. Had to disect it.. Thats why technically all the APBT are sub strains of Paddy , Gas House and or Pilot by way of strain back to the bloodline of the dog under the canis lupis. So in all of this I just proved myself wrong :) and to a new understanding altogether. :stupid: Hahaha. Maybe in the aspect of APBT, AST, SBT, ABD, BT, AB and other bulldog and bandogs only .. then we could use my theory because everything is trumped by COLBY or OFRN: otherwise my last paragraph and understanding of wolf genes and canine genetics backed by scientific biological truth, trumped both our theories.
 

·
K9 Pshrynk & Conciliare~
Joined
·
6,362 Posts
WOLF
DOG<Fighting dog of Gaul-Alaunt was result of bred stock imported to England from France} species
bulldog < bloodline
terrier<now a bloodline, fighting terrier strain of bulldog per ibid "first terriers registered in England in 1850s was from inbreeding pit bulldogs" also from: Full text of "The new book of the dog : a comprehensive natural history of British dogs and their foreign relatives, with chapters on law, breeding, kennel management, and veterinary treatment" the roughest of terriers came from the fighting bulldogs that came in all sizes depicted in Normandy conquests and other art up to 19th century. They just made the best lil fighter breeding dogs family pedigree tighter and tighter. Terrier means tenacity an old word used once like we use the term game or fastlane.
APBT< 50/50% Bulldog and Terrier: strain
All the dogs out there under Paddy, Gas House and Pilot...: sub strains ..
family are the inbred linebred dogs from those sub strains.

When saying family; people think of blood, in doing so they confuse the term with bloodline and there it is.

Since they can all disappear into Colby or OFRN and all dogs can disappear into the wolf well.. .. we all have a world to learn.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Discussion Starter · #44 ·
So it took awhile but the think tank managed to do it . This is how it is. Canine lupus is the bloodline------- our breed as great as it is ----is a strain..... And all your little favorite famous ass dogs whom you deemed fit enough to be bloodlines are actually considered "sub-strains"... Hey welcome to bloodlines 101.so reiterated... Your dog is a sub-strain of wolf.....
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,206 Posts
Fair enough Stan. Obviously anything can be debated when put under a scrutiny, especially in the game of wordplay. We may have not untied the knot in this discussion, we may have even created another knot, but at least we know where eachother is coming from. I will end by saying the wolf is badass. Not sure how it would do in the [] LOL, but then again I think the APBT would have a helluva time in the wild:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Discussion Starter · #46 ·
saint franciS- you are my DUDE!!! i would've thrown jeep in there n at least we had 1 hell of a contender letEM roll n not because i love them---bUT BECAUSE


THEY THEY LOVE ME.THAT DICUSSION WAS EFFN AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cheers:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,206 Posts
saint franciS- you are my DUDE!!! i would've thrown jeep in there n at least we had 1 hell of a contender letEM roll n not because i love them---bUT BECAUSE

THEY THEY LOVE ME.THAT DICUSSION WAS EFFN AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cheers:
Every once in awhile a good discussion finds us, with some debate of course LOL. Usually I just stay out of the way and let the chiefs hash it out...I'm just a low Indian on the totem pole of knowledge in some areas, but I figure it is far better to be long on ears and short on mouth when trying to learn something.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
870 Posts
What section was this thread started in? "Bloodline Discussion." Anyone with half a brain knows the ApBT has a number of "bloodlines."
Why else would every Tom, Dick, and Harry be asking for the "Carver dogs, Mayfield dogs, Garner dogs, ect.?"
They read a story or two and want one of the dogs from the said dog, hence, same bloodline that carries the blood of said dog/breeder.

But I'll keep it simple. You can take all the scientists, pedigree pushers, etc, in the world, with all their fancy titles.
Then give them whatever dogs they want to breed.
They will never produce true bulldogs, better bulldogs than what they started with.
Maurice Carver (too bad those who praise him never learned from his words!!) said it best:
I advertise winners and the whole world buys my dogs because I sell bulldogs. Every other dogman in the world advertises pedigrees!
You see, they need proof their dogs are good...BUT THAT's NOT PROOF!!!"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
870 Posts
Every once in awhile a good discussion finds us, with some debate of course LOL. Usually I just stay out of the way and let the chiefs hash it out...I'm just a low Indian on the totem pole of knowledge in some areas, but I figure it is far better to be long on ears and short on mouth when trying to learn something.
Once upon a time a young man from Austria named Adolf Hitler wrote a book...
Well, a stupified German nation believed him. The rest is history, and they are still discovering things today left behind by those hell bound German Nazis.

Point: whose knowledge would you choose? Men who lived it with bulldogs, and produced proven winners?
Or those who talk it but never walked it, who preach pedigrees but have no winners!?

The choice is easy, and the highest way is the simplest! :hammer:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,206 Posts
Once upon a time a young man from Austria named Adolf Hitler wrote a book...
Well, a stupified German nation believed him. The rest is history, and they are still discovering things today left behind by those hell bound German Nazis.

Point: whose knowledge would you choose? Men who lived it with bulldogs, and produced proven winners?
Or those who talk it but never walked it, who preach pedigrees but have no winners!?

The choice is easy, and the highest way is the simplest! :hammer:
True. What can't be found in books, actual authenticated history I'm talking about, must be found at the source...so opinion can be separated from fact. Ahh Hitler, he was a very, very bad man. Hitler was a messiah for a broken down people, and a monster for the rest. He was a dictator plain and simple...a mad genius. His reign of terror will forever serve as a reminder of how disgusting mankind can become.
 

·
K9 Pshrynk & Conciliare~
Joined
·
6,362 Posts
Well for all of those I just checked refferences yesterday and everytime Colby and Corvino lines met in the [] 4 of 5 it was the Colby that won. As far as bloodlines I know what your saying, I lived by that understanding and if you didn't read or can't tell I pretty much adhere right in along with Heinzl and Colby in their thought on bulldogs and pedigrees. Considering there are none in their class today and very few yesterday ; then that is what it is.

What makes a bloodline > well BLOODLINE is a made up word some breeders associate it with a family some associate it with breed and some associate it with strain.

.... All DOGS and WOLVES are identical under Canis Lupis according to DNA records...
Wolves are the SPECIES
Dog is the SUB SPECIES as there are MANY different from the wolf.
bulldogs would be STRAIN <<< Bloodline of dog??? in origin and in working question.
families would be SUB STRAINS <<Bloodline of dog as in family bloodline?? .. Paddy, Gas House, Pilot << COLBY .. OFRN.(corvino,clouse etc because its the tightest and purest of the Paddy, Gas House, Pilot DNA)

Thats my point, maybe we should follow Heinzl, and COLBY in their way of breeding a dog. I quit following Corvino however I understand I was an OFRN fanatic at one point. When it comes to genetics the only thing that prooves scientific biology wrong is "God".

Bloodline is a slang term .. It has been said: "what bloodline of dog?" more often than "what bloodline of GSD, APBT, AST, KBD," etc.. etc... because that is how it originated.. We didnt create English we just created our own rules to it as we went along. American English. LOL Bloodline would be sub species or sub strain.. However it can be associated with family bloodline.. So is the family the breeder or the dogs DNA herritage itself? I thought both, such as with COLBY, HEINZL, CORVINO, etc.. you know? What we really mean are strains OR sub strains. Bloodline is just more flavorable for story telling.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Discussion Starter · #52 ·
ok geoman have i made my point to you yet?????? a bloodline has been misconstrued to to point that a blood line can mean whatever the f*** you want it to mean. i made my point and do not care if you have more years in tHis than me (26) so the next TIME you go correcting someone about what a bloodline is just remember that today it means whatever STRAIN of dog you are talking about aND you can thank the rest of the apbt community for SCREWING UP THE WHOLE DEFINITION OF WHAT A BLOODLINE IS)my point IS THIS ACCORDING TO THE ABDA -YOUR LIL PUP IS NOT A BLOODLINE -it is a strain of canine lupus. family of mammilia genus of vertebrae. keep yer opinions to yourself .or correct someone trying to get a 12wk old pup to pull. signed-not a fan.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
870 Posts
ok geoman have i made my point to you yet?????? a bloodline has been misconstrued to to point that a blood line can mean whatever the f*** you want it to mean. i made my point and do not care if you have more years in tHis than me (26) so the next TIME you go correcting someone about what a bloodline is just remember that today it means whatever STRAIN of dog you are talking about aND you can thank the rest of the apbt community for SCREWING UP THE WHOLE DEFINITION OF WHAT A BLOODLINE IS)my point IS THIS ACCORDING TO THE ABDA -YOUR LIL PUP IS NOT A BLOODLINE -it is a strain of canine lupus. family of mammilia genus of vertebrae. keep yer opinions to yourself .or correct someone trying to get a 12wk old pup to pull. signed-not a fan.
Ya know, I have spoken with respect up to this point, and now you wanna be a total punk about it all? Figures.
Now go cry like the baby from the Pepsi Generation you are.:curse:
But you tell me what to do? Bitch I'll put you in place fast.

Signed: the hand that slapped you!

Firehazard: My whole point is this. Modern times may change, but basics never do.
The best dogs ever to cross lines weren't built by all that mumbo jumbo BS.
They were built and maintained at a price, through experience. Through loss.
Most the modern theories I have heard all sound good, but guess what?
They are no help to beginners, and are not maintained or carried by experience.
If you spoke that way to John P. Colby, he'd laugh at you.
He bred BEST to BEST. Each dog was judged individually. Each movement, habit, instinct.
Just too bad the old days are over. I'd put my money on the old timers.
Their ways are tried and true.
So it best to keep it simple. Science has no eyes in the [].
For that is where the bulldogs I speak of were born.
And if one isn't improving what they have, they have no business breeding lesser quality.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rudy4747

·
K9 Pshrynk & Conciliare~
Joined
·
6,362 Posts
I've read both Colby books more than once, along with others and have Colby breeders I've spoken with; Im sure he'd laugh alright.. Chuckle and give me good paddy dog! By the way he talked and Mr. Lou Colby talked, let alone the book by his uncle ... and by looking at that mumbo jumbo pedigrees, then you'll see it was highly prized on paddy. JP kept the best records known well for keeping acurate genuine records. He like keeping records and bred the best dogs til Heinzl come around and well Corvino is a great one however all the times Colby and Corvino blood [] it out it was the Colby the victor.. BOTH are based on Paddy premdominately. THE [] IS THE CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT ;) thats scientific breeding at its finest. Proving game.. and only breeding and using proven game.

begging the question what makes a bloodline?

Depending on who you are its simple: Strain or Sub Strain .. of the sub species: bulldog down from the wolf species or Canis Lupis.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
870 Posts
all the times Colby and Corvino blood [] it out it was the Colby the victor.. BOTH are based on Paddy .
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
I'm willing to bet you a large sum on that one!!!! LOL:thumbsup:
Even Colby had curs....that quit cold turkey. That refused to scratch.

But what I liked about Corvino is this: If he ever lost he would buy the dog that beat his.
That's how it should be. Like all of us, if we don't believe we have the best, what are we feeding them for?

About pedigrees, my point there is when we speak of dogs from long ago, we speak at a time when pedigrees were hung.
What mattered most? The pedigree or the performance of the dog in the []?
It was the latter of the two. That is what Carver meant when he said every other dogman advertised pedigrees.
Prime example: Red Boy is well known, but he was paper hung.
Didn't matter. He performed and he produced.
Look at Red Boy/Jocko. It was Red Boy that made that line good, not Jocko.
Straight Jocko produced curs. Just like Mayday, produced curs.

Just because it looks good on paper doesn't mean it will perform well, or produce well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
870 Posts
Now, what's the simple definition of a bloodline?
Okay, here's an example.

Let us each take litters of dogs all down from the same grandparents.
We continue to breed them.
When our own individual names are on the dogs both on top and bottom, from pup to great grandparents,
then although we have dogs from the same stock, we now have our own bloodlines.
 

·
K9 Pshrynk & Conciliare~
Joined
·
6,362 Posts
Nice red tape .. the books and the marks in history show nothing beat them corvino and lightener dogs but .. .. Colby.. I'm well versed in curs used a few good hunters, and if redboy was rung it was probably something near it because he bred Colby style dogs often with red noses, thus the OFRN strain in there. Maybe he was corvino with a sliver of Colby =)

Bloodine means strain however its modern use of the term it does mean sub-strain in most minds. Colby and OFRN.. ALL bulldogs today come from these. Thus sub strains..
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
740 Posts
arguing over agreeing about the same shit
 

·
K9 Pshrynk & Conciliare~
Joined
·
6,362 Posts
41 - 60 of 61 Posts
Top